To think that lots of men think this way

[Flynnshine]

Recently a good friend of my partners has split from his wife of 15 years, they have two young children between 10 and 13.
The husband has decided he isn't happy and wants to end the relationship.

Last week he came over to our house in the evening and I left him and my husband chatting in the living room. I wasn't eavesdropping but I was only in the next room so could hear their conversation. Basically the husband has been planning this split for a while, 6 months before he announced he wanted to end things he sold their beautiful big house and they moved into their much smaller starter home which they had out on rent - they moved the kids out of their private school education and into a state school local to their new home.

They've always had a very comfortable life, beautiful house, nice cars and very fancy holidays a few times a year. They both had good jobs when they first met but when the children came along the wife stopped work and dedicated her life to them. They've done amazingly well at school, both top of their classes, sporty and do two sports for their local borough. They are polite and thoughtful and genuinely lovely children.

The conversation I overheard was the husband complaining that even though the wife hasn't paid towards the mortgage for over 10 years she will still be entitled to half of what the house is worth - he seemed bitter and angry and said he'd been hiding money for ages so she wouldn't get anything when they divorce. He's even planning on quitting his job and becoming self employed so he can fudge his earnings so his maintenance payments could be less. My husband was agreeing with him, I don't know if just to placate him or if that's really how he feels!

This man honestly thinks that because he has been working and paying a mortgage that his worth is so much more. He thinks he has enabled her to not work for over 10 years and that she has been having a jolly all that time. It's like he gives zero shits that he has two wonderful children that he has never had to lift a finger for and she has given her all to those children while he reaps the rewards of that.

Do all men deep down think like this, even if they won't openly admit it? Is money really the be all and end all of everything!?

How much time with DC is enough? Spending the weekend playing catch up with cleaning, washing, gardening, general jobs fixing things etc, ferrying DC, oh and then there's all those without oh, or family, or sufficiently well paying work.

It really isn't on to blame others just you are lucky enough to have the right parameters to function well for all.

My FIL did this to MIL but I have complete sympathy with him and understand why. She was cheating on him with his best friend ffs. He had always been the higher earner and had paid for their two DC to go to private school, had paid most of the mortgage etc. She did work but didn’t earn even half as much. When he found out he immediately squirrelled his savings away. It’s no different to when people find out their husbands are cheating on MN and are advised to ‘get their ducks in a row’. Plus both their DC were adults so he wasn’t hurting them in any way.

In this example I assume she wasn’t adulterous and he’s just planning on screwing the Mother of his children over. Children who are still young enough to need financial security. He will maintain this career and can rebuild his finances after the divorce whereas she has presumably been out of work for 13 years and will now struggle greatly to get back into a well paid job.

This is why women should not quit their careers.

smother where is the victim blaming? You do know if you’re married to a misogynist twat you don’t have to stay married to him.

I spend loads of time with my child thanks. As does DH. I can’t comment about other WOHP but I’m sure they do just fine too.

Yes, you see blaa.. I am not attcking you for that, noone is accusing you of not working bloody hard, but its also valid to not assume others aren't doing the same. I commend you for escaping, did it make you homeless, were you alone? (Rhetorical, for thoughts around what challenges to be overcome and what consequences from leaving, whether this meant high risk for woman/DC to 'escape'). Being able to just leave is possible for some, impossible for others.

I am not directing at you blaa, its general to some of the posts on here, and its also not personal to me, but I am saying that its not usual for women to be able to simply leave, when mostly they could face dangerous consequences, DC too.

Which is actually a valid reason not to give up work. Not working can leave women extremely financially vulnerable.

Which is kind of the point of this thread 🙄

At no point have I suggested I'm the only person who works hard but I've been told I'm just lucky and had the reliability of my situation questioned.

Women should not be passive passengers in their lives. If you aren't happy about a situation then change it!

Hi here is no point women getting defensive in here. Why the need to justify your lifestyle?

The fact that this debate rages on and in and on on this forum, just illustrates the insecurities women face in terms of feeling torn between children and WOH. You can’t win frankly, so just do what you want.

And yes, blaa clearly it can be done, but certain parameters have to be in place, and I think it is quite harsh coming across as if you did this because you worked bloody hard (like who doesnt) and you choose to leave, women really often don't have choices, their choices are severely limited or removed by abuse, that's what's difficult to tie into your comments.

Yes it is common, but one hopes there are kind and reasonable men, too. I am pretty certain my partner would always be kind and generous because he always has been even when we separated for a bit.
However, my first husband was totally horrible and resentful. Even though I was a partner in his business and through my other work, I provided a roof over his head for many years, he was an utter sneak, as bitter and resentful as a boiled turd.
I don't have children, but I have known of many cases.A friend of mine cold not feed her children or pay their school fees because of her husband freezing their assets. She has M.S. He didn't care when she ended up in hospital even . He was on 200,000 a year!

PS. A woman being a SAHM does not make her a 'passive passenger'.

Yes, absolutely, financial constraints and choices and all that, but there are necessary parameters, and many just don't have them.

I would say lucky if ones own dp can help
Lucky if work accommodating
Lucky if partner is not in name only
Etc...as per the list I provided earlier

Some things make this possible. I am not intending to demean you in any way! It is a matter of luck to have connected with a great partner, and its unlucky to have not, that's not victim-blaming or demeaning.

Lucky to have found a job with such flexible employers, in a market of few for a specific role that pays enough and provides sufficient flexibility. To a degree you make your own luck, by increasing your own breadth and depth of skills,but having DC restricts flexibility and its the dp who's shouldering responsbility for them that becomes inflexible.

Also lucky for any women who are the 98% that didn't fall pregnant taken precautions and unlucky the 2% that did, not blamingnthem,but a very high proportion of DC were not planned!

Its far from an exact science!

These parameters do make life intolerable and financially unviable for many, normally the women, and often men will only be able to progress their careers, or not get laid off, as a result of leaving it all to a sahm.

That's not taking into account how ill all this stress and pressure can make women who carry the burden. I don't think its helpful to say that men resent women who do that, like they don't carry a huge burden of responsibility, when a man who only has to worry about work doesn't carry that burden.

Yep. Many do. Many more secretly do.

...and so back to the sahm role being demeaned as compared to that of the status claiming highly paid role.

How about a high earning father who would see his DC and their dm homeless? Nevermind all the above parameters! Purely through spite, vindictiveness and revenge.

There surely is a balance somewhere, but where does it lie and what can DMS no manage without in order to achieve in a career sufficiently well (remuneration) to won?

*WOH

Of course luck comes into every area of life. But so do lots of other things. Hard work, perspicacity and many other qualities people put into their lives and decision making play an important role.

And people set their own parameters to some extent eg I’ve often read posts where women say there’s no point them working because all of their income would go on childcare. Yet other women do continue working even when this is the case (I was one of them.) And of course neither of us is ‘right’ or ‘wrong.’ It’s a parameter we set for ourselves, which will then have consequences. I wouldn’t have achieved what I have in my career if I hadn’t done that- so for me, that’s a result. For another woman, the prospect of spending the equivalent of all their earning on childcare is a step too far so they stop working- which is again, their choice.

So an element of luck, but lots of other factors too.

I am sorry for my keyboard 'antics' again..

There surely is a balance somewhere, but where does it lie and what can DMs do, without vital parameters in place, in order to achieve in a career sufficiently well (remuneration) to WOH?

My point being, we cannot discount either as we cannot assume that any woman has stopped working purely because her take home pay is pretty much equal to her outgoings (independent woman I mean here, as with a dp that equates to higher income than just hers, but then does she live with no money or does dp share his higher income, or does he live in wealth whilst she on the breadline? This happens,a lot)

I don't think anyone can deny the benefit, even working for free, starting again by volnteerng in a role in order to et back on to work and on a career ladder, but I don't think that specific decision is the issue.

There are greater factors in play than blaming some women for making their choices, don't you think?

msno wasn't referring to SAHMs as passive passengers. I was pointing out that if someone isn't happy with their life then nothing is going to change unless they do something about it.

smother you are wilfully misunderstanding my posts and the fact most of what I've written was in response to another poster.

Whether you like it or not the choice to be a SAHP is a risky decision. You risk being financially vulnerable at some point. That's not victim blaming that's a fact.

Of course luck plays a part but so does planning and attitude.

I think ‘blaming’ is a very odd choice of word.

The choice ...that there is the problem.

I agree that not being financially independent is very risky, but what I'm pointing to is the much bigger picture, I cannot wave a wand that makes it actually financially or in any other way 'viable' for all women to have equal, flexible and sufficient remuneration, whilst other parameters are in place that enable this outcome.

There are many many men, OTOH, that have all the financials and soaring career and status, purely because of the sahm. They onkfocus on work, they are absent a lot, work long days, these men should never takes risks with sex that result in babes and act accordingly if it does.

I wish I could!!

OK, making it about some women's choices

It is ignoring realities.

soup same could be said for WOHMs though. It would be nice not to be portrayed as selfish, neglectful mothers.

That is the flip side. People have done both on this thread in fact. It is utterly ridiculous. TBH, i don't know why I'm posting on yet another battleground thread - it's utterly pointless.

Where do you think the balance lies soupdragon ? There's a balance to be had of enough time with DC in a day/across each week?

I think men get to do it guilt free, don't they? Maybe they don't, maybe some can contribute and say whether they feel they've missed out on their DC growing up or not, as a result of career?

Its not all or nothing, all wohms do it differently, some may do it selfishly?! Maybe none do, some have different balances struck, its not all anything, is it?