To think that lots of men think this way

[Flynnshine]

Recently a good friend of my partners has split from his wife of 15 years, they have two young children between 10 and 13.
The husband has decided he isn't happy and wants to end the relationship.

Last week he came over to our house in the evening and I left him and my husband chatting in the living room. I wasn't eavesdropping but I was only in the next room so could hear their conversation. Basically the husband has been planning this split for a while, 6 months before he announced he wanted to end things he sold their beautiful big house and they moved into their much smaller starter home which they had out on rent - they moved the kids out of their private school education and into a state school local to their new home.

They've always had a very comfortable life, beautiful house, nice cars and very fancy holidays a few times a year. They both had good jobs when they first met but when the children came along the wife stopped work and dedicated her life to them. They've done amazingly well at school, both top of their classes, sporty and do two sports for their local borough. They are polite and thoughtful and genuinely lovely children.

The conversation I overheard was the husband complaining that even though the wife hasn't paid towards the mortgage for over 10 years she will still be entitled to half of what the house is worth - he seemed bitter and angry and said he'd been hiding money for ages so she wouldn't get anything when they divorce. He's even planning on quitting his job and becoming self employed so he can fudge his earnings so his maintenance payments could be less. My husband was agreeing with him, I don't know if just to placate him or if that's really how he feels!

This man honestly thinks that because he has been working and paying a mortgage that his worth is so much more. He thinks he has enabled her to not work for over 10 years and that she has been having a jolly all that time. It's like he gives zero shits that he has two wonderful children that he has never had to lift a finger for and she has given her all to those children while he reaps the rewards of that.

Do all men deep down think like this, even if they won't openly admit it? Is money really the be all and end all of everything!?

Maybe those mothers you know need to give their partners a kick up the arse because if they are on the edge of burnout then something isn't working.

Like hubanmao I don't recognise the picture you describe million
It's not always easy but I've never even considered it too difficult to not continue working full time. Both of us have been promoted since becoming parents and both have travelled as part of our jobs - sometimes last minute but because we approach life as a team it works.

We pretty much always cook from scratch, we do have a cleaner but only once a month. Both of us can work from home regularly so early pick ups etc aren't an issue. We have very flexible employers ( god bless universities!!)

My dad always thought like this. He told a family member recently that he worked hard to pay for the house. Despite the fact my mother was left at home to look after several children, he worked away a lot. Also she ended up being his carer, having to do everything for him, washing, toileting etc.
I don't think my DH thinks like this, he'd better not! . Although because of my parents situation I have always worked part time so not to rely on him completely for money. DH has always been supportive though and always a hands on dad doing a lot of the childcare.

Gosh well if that’s the example of people around you Million, combined with your own dh not pulling his weight, then it gives an insight into why you feel a tad resentful at the sacrifices you’ve made.

But it still doesn’t mean all other WOHP are like your describe.

And I don’t think anyone has said it’s always rosy, always easy. Like I said, raising 3 children (with no wider family support) and both retaining our careers was blooming challenging at times. And this was in the days before long maternity leaves or any paternity leave. Absolutely worth it though, for us and our children. I always say having children was the best thing I ever did, and keeping my career going was the next best. But that just us. Not all couples feel the same. And I would never assume (as you seem determined to do) that because a couple are doing something differently, it must be ‘lesser.’

The important thing is for both partners to be in agreement and to do what works for their family. Anyone else’s opinion really doesn’t matter a jot.

@BlaaBlaaBlaa

^ As for SAHMs having an easier deal of it, I bet there would not be many wealthy men with SAHM partners who would trade places

*There are lots of women who wouldn’t trade places either..wealthy or not.

Being a SAHP isn’t for everyone and, believe it or not, lots of people actually enjoy going out to work. * ^

Yes I agree. I meant specifically the type of men who divorce with an attitude of 'my wife hasn't worked all these years, why should she get half of everything'.

People should be free to either be in employment or run a home/family, both can be hard and rewarding, different choices suit different people.

Blaa, I too worked FT with one. It was very hard, but doable. When I had another, it became a very different ball game: two lots of sickness, often at different times, two lots of Drs appointments, two lots of childcare fees and double logistics everything. It was really hard and awkward getting time off work to take DC to the Drs, I had to take them ill to childcare because I couldn’t be off for a few days yet again to be with them at home until they are better. I am not the only one guilty of it.

These illnesses often overlapped or happened at different times. When school started, it was even harder because we now had ridiculous amount of school holiday we were expected to cover. Plus the plays, parent craft days, special assemblies. Children do notice if nobody is there for the craft morning etc. We haven’t got that much holiday combined!

Employers don’t want somebody who is forever asking for time off and has one excuse after another why they have to come in late or leave early. I asked for flexible working and was refused. The employer is not legally obliged to grant it, only to consider it, and there is always a business reason why not. So not as easy to get as you would have us all believe.

Without the support network raising a family/running a home while both work FT is incredibly hard.

The H in the OP is unaware his SAHW took that worry off him, took all the juggling and logistics off him. It is worth nothing in his view.

He thinks she did very little, indeed lived a life of Riley while he worked hard. Instead of women saying running a house is a doddle, looking after kids is a doddle even on this thread, if we were honest and made girls and boys aware how much work either involves, people doing these life tasks would get more respect. I absolutely believe the wife is entitled to at least half of all assets. Her contribution was not monetary, but no less worthy.

she does not need to be compensated for it anymore than the toaster needs to be compensated for toasting his toast

Million - we can only talk about our own individual situations though. We can’t speak for anyone else.

You have explained why continuing to work full time with more than one child became too difficult for all sorts of reasons, and as your dh had already had a shot at being the SAHP and not stepped up, you gave up your career. Which is fine, so long as you and your dh are comfortable with that situation and neither of you is harbouring resentment towards the other.

However, other couples (dh and me for example) do continue working with more than one child- and that’s fine too.

And to be completely honest, there are so many different variables when it comes to ‘running a home’ that it’s far too simplistic to say it’s always hard work. Being a SAHP to a couple of older children who are in school all day, when you live in a beautiful home and have no financial pressure on you is a million miles from, for example, being a SAHP to several preschoolers, maybe with additional needs and no spare cash to run a car, go out or enjoy life’s little luxuries.

So we not only have unicorn Hs on this thread, but also unicorn jobs! How many people realistically have got such flexibility as Baa and her partner or the manager upthread who just makes the rota suit her every time? Not many, it is a rarity.

If my H started to ask for all this time off here and there and everywhere, I wonder how long he would have lasted in his job? Even getting unpaid parental leave enshrined in law is problematic.

Most people haven’t got flexible employment. My DSis has been trying to get one day a week working from home. Not much success to date. The employer wants her in the office although her job can be done anywhere where there is WiFi and telephone signal. So she has got no choice but to be present in the office.

I am extremely fortunate I have got one of those ‘sort of’ unicorn jobs I can choose my hours for or arrange time off to suit me. I am self-employed and work very part time. But it is a niche occupation. Not easily available to most. I don’t go telling people you should just do what I do because it is not something anybody can access.

I don't think you realise how patronising you sound million You also seem unable to understand that the situation you experienced isn't the same for everyone else.

Not one of us has said that it's easy but it doesn't have to be as hard as you make out providing you have a partner that contributes equally. Despite your protests they do exist!

Without the support network raising a family/running a home while both work FT is incredibly hard We rely on nursery for our childcare. We have no extended family near by. We still manage without too many issues.

Plus the plays, parent craft days, special assemblies. Children do notice if nobody is there for the craft morning etc. We haven’t got that much holiday combined!
We haven't missed a single event...either of us. We are very lucky to be able to work from home and have very generous leave...i have 37 days plus bank holidays and Christmas.

Employers don’t want somebody who is forever asking for time off and has one excuse after another why they have to come in late or leave early. I asked for flexible working and was refused. The employer is not legally obliged to grant it, only to consider it, and there is always a business reason why not. So not as easy to get as you would have us all believe

In some sectors flexible working is the norm. Even for those without children. I know not every sector or organisation embraces it but looking around at my friends i can see that a far few actually do. I've also found that the longer you work somewhere the easier it is to be allowed to work flexibly. This is why i've also advised women to think long and hard before giving up work completely. You need far more flexibility with school age children and it's easier to request flexibility when they know you then to walk straight into a flexible position.

I know how lucky we are BUT we planned carefully and work hard to make it work. Not every working mother is drowning under stress or has a lazy, incompetent husband.

None of us are telling anyone else what to do!! And you’re the one who keeps bizarrely banging on about ‘unicorn jobs’ and ‘unicorn husbands’.

I think the rest of us are just getting on with life- which presumably for all of us, in whatever combination, is a mix of the joys and challenges of working, running our homes and raising our wonderful children.

That was in response to Million

I don't have a 'unicorn' job....i'm a senior lecturer at a university. There are literally 100's of us and that's just in my university.

Yeah, so many men only look at a relationship (and anything else it seems) in terms of spreadsheets. And double standards - for them, of course.

The late Bertrand Russell espoused the model of the Open Marriage, for himself, with mistresses right, left and centre. However......when his wife Dora thought it was OK for her to have a lover (just the one) she found herself divorced.

Shucks!

I agree with @MillionScarletRoses

These types of threads always end up with a raft of WOHPs insisting that they have managed to retain their careers AND have been present and active in their DCs lives in exactly the same way as a SAHP would be. It is completely illogical as aside from anything else SAHPs (especially those of DC below school age) tend to spend much more time with their DC and obviously SAHPs don't need to divide their energy, time and effort in the same way that a WOHP does. You are as much a parent if you choose to be a SAHP, WOHP, choose to home educate or send your DC to boarding school, however our parenting choices will lead to our DC having very different types of childhoods with differing levels of contact and involvement with parents

I think the advantages of being a WOHP are pretty well represented on MN and rarely challenged, but if someone dare say that they think that being a SAHP has enabled them to be a better parent or given their DC a better life then WOHPs will absolutely dispute that this could possibly be the case. I think it's one thing to say that being a WOHP on balance is better for everyone in the family but I do think that pretending that working out of the home doesn't ever have any adverse effects on certain areas of family life is really disingenuous. Like most things in life, I believe that it comes down to a trade off of advantages and disadvantages and ultimately we all can't be all things at all times. It just isn't physically possible!

I think it's one thing to say that being a WOHP on balance is better for everyone in the family but I do think that pretending that working out of the home doesn't ever have any adverse effects on certain areas of family life is really disingenuous. Like most things in life, I believe that it comes down to a trade off of advantages and disadvantages and ultimately we all can't be all things at all times. It just isn't physically possible!

But to suggest that that trade off negatively impacts the individual children in these situations is at best disingenuous and at worst insulting. My trade off is that my house isn't as tidy as i would like, i don't get to the gym as often as I used to and i don't get as much time to chill, watch tv or read. Those are my sacrifices....not my career or my child.

Yes my child will have a different childhood than those children who had a SAHP BUT different doesn't mean worse.

Bollocks Bumpity.

Most posters (whether they are WOHP or SAHP) are comfortable with their choice and aren’t remotely interested in trying to draw pointless comparisons with people who do things differently. It’s a very small minority who can’t seem to get their heads round the fact that there are myriad ways of parenting and that there isn’t one Specific ‘best way.’

Of course everything in life comes down to making decisions which are likely to have upsides and downsides. That’s stating the bleeding obvious!

But i don’t think anyone here has claimed to have the ‘perfect life’ (hint - it doesn’t exist!)

What matters is having a lifestyle that both partners are comfortable with, and which works for your family. Ultimately, we all want to raise our children to be happy well rounded adults isn’t it? As an ‘oldie’ I can safely say my adult children fit that description. As I’ve no doubt they would if I’d been a SAHM too.

Blaaa- I’m getting the feeling that a few posters would feel more validated in their choices if those of us who work, join in with their tales of woe. If we were to say ‘gosh yes, working is so awful, I’m totally screwing my kids up and they’re turning into anti social unhappy adults’ then bizarrely, that would make these posters feel better.

It’s really odd. Sorry to disappoint them but I’m not going to make stuff up just to make them feel good about their choices.

hubanmao I know. Bizarre isn't it?

I'm not going to complain because I've got nothing worth complaining about. It doesn't mean it's all easy and plain sailing but, on the whole, life is good.

Sad isn’t it. I’m a single mum, one dc, work full time and make it all work fairly well.

BUT, I won’t marry because it’s too much of a risk. I have a home and can provide for my child. Marrying would risk losing our home so I’ve quietly discounted it for at least 10 years.

On these threads, I always wonder what people are actually arguing about.
People talk about “WOHM” as if they’re some kind of monolith who all share the same experiences. But we all know that there as as many permutations if job as there are people - from a laid-back office role where you can spend most of your time on MN, to something relentless like an A&E surgeon or someone who is overseas most weeks. Some jobs are within school hours, others 70 hours a week. Some people thrive in their jobs; some are perpetually overwhelmed and anxious; some just plough on for the money. It’s like comparing apples with pears.

Then there is this assumption that we should all by default want the MN standard of the “50/50 DH.” Well I have to be absolutely honest and say this wasn’t top of my list of priorities because I always knew that if I had DC I would want to be the primary caregiver. It’s not that my career never mattered to me, I just know I would have hated leaving my DC with someone else, even after school clubs etc, and would have resented that more than the loss of career. So not surprisingly, I’ve ended up with a DH who also would prefer a wife who focuses on the kids and is motivated in that way. He’s still supportive, but we feel more comfortable being able to focus on what we feel we can contribute best. It’s just a different balance.

I really don’t think “all” men think like the one in the OP, no. Most families we know have long-term SAHMs. I know if only 2 divorces, which is quite staggering when you think the national rate is 1 in 3. As far as I can see it’s less than 1 in 50, and this is people into their late 40s / 50s. In the 2 cases of divorce I know, the DH kept paying the school fees; the wife stayed in the house with the kids and they came to reasonable financial settlements. If there was drama, it was not over the finances. Most men, even if they can’t stand their wives or are blindsided by an OW, still don’t want their children to suffer or have their lives disrupted more than absolutely necessary. Also, even if the case if women who returned to work but are married to very high earners, they wouldn’t be able to pay the entire mortgage or school fees on their salary anyway, so it’s much of a muchness really whether they work or not as to how vulnerable they are.

If a DH wants out, he will try and make himself feel semi-justified by blaming the wife for something. If she was at home, it will be her fault for not contributing, blah, blah. If she was at work, it will be “she never had enough time for me - we grew apart, blah, blah.” Total load of b***cks in either case. The fact is, the wife has done nothing wrong. He has had his head turned by some OW and is now trying to create a “situation” to assuage his guilt. Tosser.

Million I expect we’re all familiar with the absolute grind of the early years eg constant dr appointments etc but that doesn’t last forever.

My 13 year old had a stomach bug this summer and he remarked that he didn’t remember how dreadful vomiting was as it had been so long, and indeed it had been years.

Firstly, just to be clear, I'm not some WOHP hater. Not only will I be one myself in a few years but my DH is one and many of my friends and relatives are fantastic WOHPs. I am not out to insult WOHPs or pit SAHPs against WOHPs

To address specific points;
@BlaaBlaaBlaa
to suggest that that trade off negatively impacts the individual children in these situations is at best disingenuous and at worst insulting
In my view and experience, sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. I have seen exhausted and
at times clearly quite ill children being left for extremely long days in childcare because their parents have had no alternative. I also know children that don't have any contact at all with their parents during the week and they are looked after by a myriad of breakfast/after school clubs and childminders. One has openly spoken to me about how they would like more time with their parents and how they are envious of other families. Of course, WOHPs don't all have these issues but you do tend to compromise the flexibility and availability that you have for your children when you have work commitments. Hopefully the push towards more flexible working will help in this area and I know many people already have jobs that mitigate against this.

Also the above does not mean that there aren't advantages to being or having a WOHP either. I just think these are more widely expressed and accepted so there is no need to go into them.

@Hubanmao
Of course everything in life comes down to making decisions which are likely to have upsides and downsides. That’s stating the bleeding obvious!
Not sure why you have taken offence at my post as I basically agree with what you posted at 11:31.

My gripe was just that some posters seem determined to suggest that they can maintain a fantastically successful career that involves long hours and international travel whilst also devoting the same amount of time and energy to their DC as a SAHP would. It's not just in this thread, but something that crops up time and again on MN. Not only is it illogical as nobody can be in two places at once, but it also completely dismisses and undermines the work that SAHPs do. Is it little wonder that as a society we have so little respect for SAHPs when we have people claiming that the role is such a nothing that they parent in exactly the same way as a SAHP just in infinitely less time and expending significantly less effort. It just doesn't make sense!

Totally agree with your first paragraph 1ndig0.

Disagree with your point about an ‘MN standard of 50/50’
It’s down to individuals. Aiming to balance things as equally as possibly has worked for dh and me, because it suited us both to have good careers but not at the sort of level that would take up 80 hours of our week, or involve being away from home for huge swathes of time. And equally we both wanted to have a good amount of hands on time with the children and sharing out the daily tasks of running a home.

But I don’t think anyone apart from you had suggested this is some kind of gold standard which we should all try to achieve. As you yourself point out, some couples are happy to take on the role of ‘earner’ or ‘carer.’ And some people have particularly strong views about not wanting to use childcare or clubs, which then gets factored into their decision.

It’s horses for courses isn’t it? And it all comes down to making decisions which you as a couple both agree with, and then keeping the lines of communication open so that when circumstances change, eg: children get older, or a job is made redundant, or one partner finds their role stressful, things are renegotiated in an adult manner

I take on board your points bumpity but there does seem to be a school of thought both on MN and IRL that WOHM (and I say mothers because this is never said the fathers) are doing their children a disservice by going out to work. Despite quite a bit of research suggesting the opposite.

When I returned after mat leave I lost count the amount of women ( always women) who told me how awful it was that I'd had return to work full time. My DH worked at the same place and not one person said that to him. It seems to be acceptable to pile on the guilt when women return to work. I have never criticised a SAHP for their choices despite it being my idea of an absolute nightmare.

I think this thread demonstrates that we still have a long way to go. Looking after kids and running a house are still not seen as 'proper' work and until this is valued by society then we don't progress.