To think it’s easier to want open boarders if you’re privileged?

[Theselfishsister]

Having an ongoing conflict with my sister regarding refugees, she’s very ‘let everyone in’ I would say I’m somewhere in the middle.

She’s given up spare bedrooms to refugees, spends weekends in Calais helping them and is posting everywhere on SM about letting them all in. As well as attending protests regularly for the last 4 years or so.

What strikes me is that her and her other friends going to all of the events are white, MC (although she is by marriage, we grew up very WC) and live incredibly comfortably. She’s a SAHM and her husband owns his own company, they have never needed benefits or social housing and her children are privately educated with all of them receiving private medical care.

A massive increase in people here are unlikely to ever have much affect on her life, she won’t have to fight for jobs or wait for a house or deal with benefit cuts when too much is paid out, as well as the increase in waits for Medical care and school admissions. Whereas for someone like me, this is obviously a more worrying factor and the thought of just opening our borders to everyone does scare me. As much as I would love to be able to take every person fleeing a great life, it just causes me worry and I don’t think I could support completely open boarders.

She obviously just thinks I’m a selfish heartless bitch for not protesting to remove our borders or similar. When I asked why she let refugees sleep in her spare rooms but never the homeless man on the road behind her (who’s been in the same spot since she moved there 5 years ago!) she called me a racist!

So AIBU to think it’s easier to want open boarders if you’re privileged or am I just a selfish cow?

What are the EU for?

To provide a basic level of protection.

Even at Shirebrook you get Minimum guaranteed maternity leave of 14 weeks for pregnant women they don't get that in the US.

The Working Time Directive can be applied.

Wow, lots of ignorance on this thread (not you OP). First of all, refugees do not come here; they are asylum seekers. And coming here to live on benefits? Do you know how difficult it can be/how long it takes to be granted refugee status (so you actually qualify to claim benefits, work, apply for proper housing etc)? Asylum seekers have no choice, they are fleeing hideously dangerous situations with their families.

With regards to the homelessness crisis, there absolutely is a crisis. But in many areas (I can't speak for all) there are enough hostel beds for rough sleepers to have a roof over their head. The rough sleeping crisis is very different to homelessness. Rough sleepers are so entrenched in their way of life/addiction problems (not their fault - mostly from abusive backgrounds etc) that they choose not to go to a hostel and stay on the street, where they likely have a community of other rough sleepers and can use drugs/alcohol freely (most hostels wouldn't allow this, rightly so, as they need to put the safety of their residents first).

And food banks, the majority of people accessing these are in work, not homeless. Begging is lucrative and in a city, a beggar could earn up to £150 a day.

@Boris Obviously I have no control over what you "find odd"

I didn't vote leave on the sole issue of workers rights any more than I imagine you voted remain on it.

I find it odd that Worker's rights are apparently a reason to remain, but if I complain that the rights conferred by the EU are so minimal as to be pointless, that's not the fault of the EU.

Your faith in the Tories to build on additional rights is touching. Look at the USA. Those federal workers who are locked out are legally unable to strike, think about maternity leave there.
I have zero faith in the Tories - I have never voted Tory in my life, nor would I - and I have already said so on this thread so try reading what I have written and not just following your own bling prejudice.

Do you want some of that kind of capitalism because that is exactly where Steve Bannon and his mate Nigel want us to go?
No I don't, and I've never said I did.
The issue is that if enough people in the UK do want it - it's not up to me to go running to the EU to "save us" from them.

And what are you risking?

If enough people in the U.K. don't want it we are safe?

How does the FPTP system work? 32% of the votes cast can be a majority. A majority in the HoC can be achieved while losing the popular vote.

So more people could vote Labour and the tories could get in and then our rights are ripped up. That is not a risk I am prepared to take. The EU isn't brilliant but if I'm wrong we maintain the status quo.

If you are wrong we could end up with unfettered capitalism and our rights shredded. That is a bloody big risk with peoples lives in the hope we won't get a Tory government with a majority.

I wouldn't want that blood on my hands.

Are we stealing jobs and forcing tradesmen to drop their prices or are we on benefits?

Ah, the famous Schrödinger's immigrant. Simultaneously stealing jobs and lazying around on benefits.

Schrödinger's immigrant

If you are wrong we could end up with unfettered capitalism and our rights shredded.

But the rights we get from the EU are minimal - if we remained and got a landslide far-right Troy government that could happen inside the EU.

The FPTP system is utter shite - but no-one seems to be offering to reform that. One hope I have is that the constitutional wrangling over Brexit might reignite that debate.

Ah, the famous Schrödinger's immigrant. Simultaneously stealing jobs and lazying around on benefits.

Yes, and simultaneously paying more in taxes than anyone else as well as not using any schools, doctors, roads or housing :)

So more people could vote Labour and the tories could get in and then our rights are ripped up. That is not a risk I am prepared to take. The EU isn't brilliant but if I'm wrong we maintain the status quo.

Eh? That is exactly what has happened with each Troy government - we get shafted every time and the EU hasn't done anything to help us get the "right answer". This government has shredded benefits and attacked poor people. I don't see the EU protecting people from them.

But the EU does offer a level of protection for all workers.

We still have 14 weeks maternity leave - that could easily go.
We have the Working Time Directive - that could go.

The EU has maintained this level of protection.

We still have 14 weeks maternity leave - that could easily go.

We have more than that because it's determined locally. Of course it could go if we leave the EU - but no-one has proposed it. You talk as if it's a certainty which it clearly isn't.

On the other hand an incoming Tory (or any) government could by the same token reduce the current 52 weeks to 14 if we remain in the EU.

We have the Working Time Directive - that could go.
It's fucking pointless because we have an opt-out.

We wouldn't notice if it went.

@KatharinaRosalie yessss

Absolutely, they could act unilaterally.

This isn't the only reason I support remain but it's a factor. The EU offers us a fig leaf of protection, far from ideal but better than nothing.

No one has proposed anything specific on leaving the EU but a 'bonfire of regulations' has been suggested.

Gove highlighted a government-commissioned report by Marc Bolland, the former chief executive of Marks & Spencer, which ran through a list of EU employment protections it would like to see withdrawn or changed including pregnant worker proposals, the agency workers directive, the acquired rights directive and the working time directive

This is from The Guardian but the quotes are correct. When someone tells you who they are - listen to them.

Remain wasn’t a vote for the status quo as such as the EU is evolving. It looks a lot different from when Maastricht/Lisbon Treaty was enacted.

Just because you saw one example on the TV, that makes good TV, doesn't mean its regular or common

But you are forgetting the ones I know personally.

As for white working class boys not engaging with education.

As I have pointed out it is more to do with any form of training being beyond what they can access. No English and Maths GCSE = No training.

I actually called to check with a friend who has a Ds a couple of years older than my own Ds.

They live in mainland Europe.

Her Ds is finishing off his qualification in the same thing as my Ds would like to qualify in.

I was interested to know as I know her Ds had some quite bad problems with dyslexia and literacy, even worse than my Ds and I wondered how he had managed the course and what sort of qualifications he had needed to get on the course.

She laughed at me and said zero.
Did I honestly think her Ds was capable of passing English let alone a foreign language exam.

This type of course was for those that weren’t going to pass academic exams.

Here it is like saying in order to be taught brick laying then you have to have A level maths so you can count the bricks

I think there are a lot of dodgy percentages being bandied around.

If 15.1% of the population are self employed then it is not as simple saying that means 84.9% are employed.

You are missing out on huge sections of society who are either unemployed or SAHP’s or just those that don’t appear anywhere who EU workers rights don’t affect because they are not in any form of work

@Oliversmumsarmy we have the same where I am from. You don't need any qualifications to go to college, there are none because it is simply that everyone is educated to GCSE level.
Some colleges do entry exam some use grades from your last year in a secondary. eg., You need 2 overall or 1 overall to get in.

To ensure that everyone gets a chance of further education we even have NVQs in "shop assistant" or waitressing ones.

If I am asked about GCSE in UK I just show my grades from the year needed and that's done. But that is rare considering I have Alevels too.

Just want to quickly add that the qualification I mentioned include about 12 subjects including maths, native and foreign language, basic economics etc.

I fully agree that GCSE English isn't needed for level 2 plumbing. However, the point being made was that immigration has some positive aspects and one of these positive aspects is that immigrants are a positive influence on schools.

Immigrant families often have a good attitude towards education and this can rub off on those around them.

Moussemoose

I was referring to the comments about working class white boys and the difference between for example an immigrant coming in from for example America or my friends country in mainland Europe who have no need for any qualifications or levels they need to get to qualify for example as a plumber.

Whilst you don’t need English or Maths to do level 2 plumbing whilst you are in college. You do need them for the apprenticeship so you can qualify as a basic plumber.

No GCSE English and Maths = No Apprenticeship = No qualification

Friends country.

No Language or Maths qualifications, or no levels attained= Qualification in anything

You can’t go any further. Let alone doing level 3

A lot if not all courses from car maintenance to Hair and Beauty, to probably Brick Laying are the same.

Whilst being able to speak and understand English is a must it doesn’t mean you can’t if you haven’t passed your GCSE English.

Equally being able to add up and do basic maths is nothing to do with a maths GCSE.

@Oliversmumsarmy I am not sure where the problem is because these people (incl myself) are still educated to and often above GCSE level which you still have to show if you want to get further qualifications in UK. Usually by showing your grade reports from the same year GCSE would be taken.

You can't just rock up with 4 years of primary and get the place at college or apprenticeship.

The policy insisting all students need GCSE English and maths to become hairdressers, plumbers and chefs was made by Michael Gove and implemented by this government.

This has further increased disengagement with education especially those who fail GCSE English or maths multiple times.

As you point out this doesn't happen in other European countries. It is the U.K. government who makes life difficult. Not immigrants and not the EU.

But to be fair if we didn't have immigration then things would have to change with education and training. Immigrants aren't to blame for it but I can see how it's a sticking plaster.

"I think there are a lot of dodgy percentages being bandied around.

If 15.1% of the population are self employed then it is not as simple saying that means 84.9% are employed."

15.1% of those in work.

Most countries will have required you to get passed some barrier to entry in order to access apprenticeships, they are not just open to all.