To think it’s easier to want open boarders if you’re privileged?

[Theselfishsister]

Having an ongoing conflict with my sister regarding refugees, she’s very ‘let everyone in’ I would say I’m somewhere in the middle.

She’s given up spare bedrooms to refugees, spends weekends in Calais helping them and is posting everywhere on SM about letting them all in. As well as attending protests regularly for the last 4 years or so.

What strikes me is that her and her other friends going to all of the events are white, MC (although she is by marriage, we grew up very WC) and live incredibly comfortably. She’s a SAHM and her husband owns his own company, they have never needed benefits or social housing and her children are privately educated with all of them receiving private medical care.

A massive increase in people here are unlikely to ever have much affect on her life, she won’t have to fight for jobs or wait for a house or deal with benefit cuts when too much is paid out, as well as the increase in waits for Medical care and school admissions. Whereas for someone like me, this is obviously a more worrying factor and the thought of just opening our borders to everyone does scare me. As much as I would love to be able to take every person fleeing a great life, it just causes me worry and I don’t think I could support completely open boarders.

She obviously just thinks I’m a selfish heartless bitch for not protesting to remove our borders or similar. When I asked why she let refugees sleep in her spare rooms but never the homeless man on the road behind her (who’s been in the same spot since she moved there 5 years ago!) she called me a racist!

So AIBU to think it’s easier to want open boarders if you’re privileged or am I just a selfish cow?

"UK people keep voting in Tory governments so we need the EU to modify and place a brake on the Tories attacks on workers - but that's NOT undemocratic, not at all, oh no."

Actually not, because the UK democratically elected goverments signed up to the conventions that allow the EU to intervene.

"Yet at the same time, the SOLE and only reason bad things happen in the UK is because of the (Tory) governments we elect - and NOT anything to do with EU ever?"

Nope no one said that, just the problems that you are specifically highlighting are ones that come under national government jurisdiction. Yet you are complaining that the EU doesn't do anything about it.

The inability of people to see anything negative about the Tory party is worrying!
Madness to blame the EU for your problems but this thread demonstrates why we're in such a mess. People are just prejudiced and poorly informed.

Is there anything what isn't apparently our fault?

Most good and bad things in our country are the responsibility of the government because it governs the country. That is kind of how governments work.

Why would most problems not be the fault of the person or people in charge?

Outside influences are important but how you deal with them is your responsibility.

Just because you saw one example on the TV, that makes good TV, doesn't mean its regular or common.

Interesting data from that report. I notice that for some reason they use different measures for the groups renting social housing and owning.

For social housing lets, they use the measure of percentage of UK nationals, which means anyone who holds citizenship. That can cover lots of people born and raised elsewhere who gained citizenship later in life, possibly with dual nationality. Apparently the figure of lets to them is 91%

But for housing ownership, they’ve chosen to use the measure of ‘foreign born’. Which is self explanatory. Apparently only 43% of foreign born people own their own home.

Why use the different measures? Well obviously they’ve chosen the figures which best illustrate what they want to claim. For social housing, they use the measure of UK nationals, ignoring the fact that includes many migrants, because they want the number of social housing tenants to appear to show as many as possible lets going to what they hope people will think (incorrectly) is non-migrant tenants.

And why do they use foreign born for house ownership? If they use foreign born as a measure, they will get as many transient young workers who have no intention of settling here and aren’t doing things like buying houses and putting down roots. They haven’t used the UK nationals measure because that would highlight that migrants who put down roots and settle here are much more likely to own property and the difference in levels of ownership is down to choice rather than discrimination.

There are more problems with those figures too, the foreign born population of the UK is 8%, and the letting rate to ‘non uk nationals’ is 8%. So that’s a slight over representation of lets to them. But almost half of of the foreign born in the UK hold UK citizenship so aren’t counted in the numbers of social tenancies in the figures for non uk nationals, even though they are migrants. So that leaves us with 4% of the population is getting 9% of the lets. A 50% over representation.

Add into that as well, most migrants from the EU are young, childless, fit and heathy. They will not qualify for social housing. Europeans make up 5% of the 8% of foreign born UK citizens. So childless, healthy ones must make up at least 2.5% of that 5%.

Which then leaves us with the 1.5% of non-uk nationals receiving 9% of the social lets. A gross and unfair over representation.

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

I'd love to see who people blame once we're actually out of the EU. Space aliens maybe? Corbyn though he's not actually in government? Noel Edmonds?

Nope no one said that, just the problems that you are specifically highlighting are ones that come under national government jurisdiction. Yet you are complaining that the EU doesn't do anything about it.

I think you are confusing me with another poster.

My contention was that the EU has done fuck all for worker's rights in places like Shirebrook. If you are familiar with the area you may know there's one major employer there - and it's not famed for how brilliantly workers are treated. Most of the workforce is actually from elsewhere in the EU.

"That can cover lots of people born and raised elsewhere who gained citizenship later in life, possibly with dual nationality"

I'd think this is to cover people who arrived as migrants in the 50s/60s etc and as to use them as "immigrants" is inaccurate.

The foreign born population is 14.1% not 8%.

"Which then leaves us with the 1.5% of non-uk nationals receiving 9% of the social lets. A gross and unfair over representation."

It helps if you get your sums right if you are going to come to these conclusions.

Can you link to where the methodology differs?

I'd love to see who people blame once we're actually out of the EU

If the EU doesn't do anything at all why are even it it?

If you think it only does good then you're the one who needs to be talking about "space aliens"

"My contention was that the EU has done fuck all for worker's rights in places like Shirebrook."

Where the main employer is a 0 hours contractor, something that other EU states have banned, and the UK government has control over not the EU, so you are blaming the EU for things it has no control over.

" Europeans make up 5% of the 8% of foreign born UK citizens. "

Again, misleading use of statistics, EU migrants make up 6% of the entire population, so make up 42% of all foreign born UK citizens.

"If the EU doesn't do anything at all why are even it it?"

Leavers can't decide what they want, on one hand:

"The EU has too much power"

On the other:

"The EU does nothing about this issue that is within the control of national governments"

Which is it that you want?

The EU provides a very basic level of rights. The fact that employers in Shirebrook treat employees badly is because U.K. governments have not built on to and added to those rights.

Most EU countries have banned zero hours contracts. We haven't done that in the U.K. because our government doesn't want to.

so we rely on the basic standards provided by the EU.

That is just factually incorrect - many of our rights exceed those mandated by the EU.

Our (hardly generous) statutory maternity is just one example.

The EU doesn't mandate a minimum wage, for another.

They are fuck all use at things that actually matter, whilst creating the illusion that they are a lovely paternal organisation.

Where the main employer is a 0 hours contractor, something that other EU states have banned, and the UK government has control over not the EU, so you are blaming the EU for things it has no control over.

Oh, I see, the EU is great for protecting workers, but if they need protecting that's nothing to do with the EU.

The idea that the EU gives a fuck about real workers rights is just nonsense.

"many of our rights exceed those mandated by the EU"

Yes and we can build on those mandated. Our government has chosen to do nothing about 0 hours contracts.

You would complain if the EU had banned them in its entirety.

"Oh, I see, the EU is great for protecting workers, but if they need protecting that's nothing to do with the EU."

Except your blaming the EU for something that is not in its control?

It sets base standards, based on what EU member states have agreed to. The issues you are highlighting are not within EU jurisdiction, and if it did have it, you would have complained that it has too much power.

@boris - I am refuting the argument that we only get workers rights from the EU. You seem to agree with that - by saying worker's rights are the business of our government.

If we rely on our own government for workers rights and no worthwhile ones are conferred by the EU, then "Worker's rights" cannot be claimed as an advantage if EU membership.

You would complain if the EU had banned them in its entirety.

How the flip would you know?

I don't believe in exclusively worded zero hours contracts and I have never voted Tory - but the idea that we need the EU to guarantee workers rights is just fantasy.

-" I am refuting the argument that we only get workers rights from the EU. "

No one has claimed this. What has been claimed is that remaining in the EU will protect workers rights that we currently have.

What do you think "the bonfire of the regulation" desired by JRM et al will be?

We don't rely on all of our workers rights from the EU, but it has improved some of our rights, and membership of the EU guarantees a level of rights will be provided.

what is going to happen to the EU with Germany going into recession?
Germany is Europe’s largest economy but can the EU survive with its major net contibuter on the brink of a recession ( or already in recession depending on what economists your read)

BorisBogtrotter

All we hear is how wonderful the EU is, how it benefits everyone when this really isn't the truth.

Remaining in the EU isn't the only way to protect workers rights.

EU workers rights are minimal.

What do you think "the bonfire of the regulation" desired by JRM et al will be

JRM and his crew can only do this if enough people vote for him (he's not running employment policy at present). I think it's unlikely they would but if they do, that's democracy.

I find it odd that the claim is that we're all fucked without the EU but the extent to which we're fucked at present (Shirebrook) isn't their fault. What are they for?

"All we hear is how wonderful the EU is, how it benefits everyone when this really isn't the truth"

Not at all. What you here are people repeating valid points.

Never seen anyone say the EU is wonderful.

"Germany is Europe’s largest economy but can the EU survive with its major net contibuter on the brink of a recession ( or already in recession depending on what economists your read)"

Germany will still contribute, it may have lower contribution because the yearly calculation is based on GDP.

I find it odd that you object to policies that are in the control of the UK government, and have voted out of the EU because of it.

I find it odd that you would say "its democracy" if the Tories do ( and they will) reduce workers rights, when the rights you are complaining about are already within your democratic control.

The EU has set a basic level of workers rights. We do exceed some but not others.

When politicians talk about removing red tape you do know 'red tape' means rights don't you? When we leave and our rights are dismantled with no EU protections what good will it do for me to say "I told you so"?

The EU is not perfect but just at the moment i don't think this country is capable of having a nuanced discussion.

Your faith in the Tories to build on additional rights is touching. Look at the USA. Those federal workers who are locked out are legally unable to strike, think about maternity leave there.

Do you want some of that kind of capitalism because that is exactly where Steve Bannon and his mate Nigel want us to go?