To ask if eggs can ever be vegan

[GloryforGloves]

Before I discuss, let me share the definition of veganism from the Vegan Society website:

Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.

So, I understand fully that the egg industry is rubbish. Hens are confined, even if the box says free range; male chicks born as potential breeders are culled; old chickens are slaughtered. As a meat eater who buys into this, I get it’s shit. So I was wondering about alternatives.

Based on the definition above, I think it could be considered vegan to eat eggs from a rescue chicken who was keep in a happy, free range environment - a large back garden with a suitable setup. You are not breeding the animal for a specific purpose and I wouldn’t consider that exploitation as the chicken would lay regardless - in fact you are saving an animal that would have otherwise be slaughtered.
Instead you provide the chicken a comfortable, safe place to live and you enjoy it’s waste product.

I know some (most?) vegans say no animal product at all - but I think there has to be a reason for that stance - if it’s for ethics, then is this unethical?

What are your thoughts? Could rescued, well loved chicken eggs be considered vegan?

I don’t eat meat but I’m not a vegan. Not anymore anyway. Although I only use soya milk and eat eggs once in a blue moon.

I think that to be sensible and function in modern society and as a human we have to draw a line somewhere. I can understand that people don’t want to perpetuate the cruelty of the mass farming industry but if it’s purely about the welfare of the animal then there’s nothing wrong with eating the eggs of chickens kept at home in free range conditions. We kept hens when I was a kid. They were proper free range. There were literally no fences but the chickens stayed in the yard because it benefited them and in turn this benefited us as if the eggs weren’t collected they would rot. It was wasteful not to eat them.

I think vegans forget that living symbiotically with animals has been a very natural state for humans for thousands of years. The animals receive food and protection and care and in return provide wool or milk or eggs or whatever but it’s factory farming that has destroyed animal welfare. Not the people who maintain a smallholding for their own use and enjoyment of the animals and accept that some days/weeks/months there won’t be eggs or milk without forcing their animals to produce. It gets silly when people say that taking an egg from a free range home kept hen is cruel. The hen doesn’t have the mental capacity to think that one through so it’s not really something to get concerned about.

And besides—if you’re a die-hard vegan how do you handle money. The newer plastic notes contain animal fats. See, we have to figure out where to call a halt so we can continue to function or it all gets a little ridiculous.

My understanding of the term vegan and vegetarian is that they refer only to diet. Lifestyle choices based on ethics and morality may be associated but are not what these terms refer to.

A vegan diet is exclusively plant based, a vegetarian diet allows more flexibility in terms of animal derived products.

Ergo, an egg can never be vegan.

Luna 3 chickens on 5 acres, all outdoors, except for at night when they go into roost. I completely agree re the egg industry.. but this is not the egg industry we’re talking about

@Ihaven’tgottimeforthis
how interesting, that means the egg-eating chickens is not the rural myth as I had wondered, after all agree with your points

There's lots of incorrect stuff in ti's thread regarding chickens - modern chicken hybrids will lay whatever they're fed on, layers mash is just perfectly formulated for their nutritional needs. Almost all breeds of chickens have been bred to produce more eggs than would be natural, although this may shorten their life most will live for 4-10 years, which is much longer than if they were in the wild. If you keep chickens (rescues or other) than males will have been killed in the process, and either discarded or used as food. But if a vegan is willing to keep an inbred domestic cat or dig which may have health problems due to this inbreeding, there is no difference on keeping chickens.

Chickens generally will not eat they're own eggs, they will go to waste if not collected. However if smashed open they will happily eat them. The farmed hybrids of chicken (those that may end up as 'rescues') are bred in such a way that they have lost the instinct to hatch their own eggs (so that they continually lay) so if eggs are not collected the chickens will not try and hatch them. There are many 'fancy' breeds however that will go broody given half the chance.

I don't think anyone has mentioned that if you keep chickens (which always attract rats) you have a responsibility to control the rat population using poison or trapping. This was particularly important during the bird flu issues two years ago as rats can act as physical carriers between wild bird and domestic poultry.

So, if someone is a vegan, I'm not sure eating eggs can ever be a truly ethical choice when it comes to animal welfare.

I think OP has asked a really interesting question. I'm not vegan, or even vegetarian, but I eat minimal meat and dairy. I don't eat eggs because I don't like them.

I want to ask those who are vegan and say no eggs should ever be eaten - What should happen to the eggs in the scenario the OP describes? When chickens lay these eggs and not try to eat them or nest them? Is it really ethical to just bin them?

About roadkill, I would say the only thing that wouldn't take food away from another animal would be a dead badger, as nothing ever seems to want to eat them.

thecatneuterer

If you are not vegan, it makes sense to eat the eggs from the hens that you care for in your garden. That would be the kindest option. It's better than nothing imo. But it does not help the hens next in line.

The extra harm is that it's a bit like shutting the gate once the horse has bolted ie the male chicks have already been blended and the hens in your garden have already been replaced.

So by removing the demand the supply would dry up.

If you never ate another egg once your own hens died,and did not replace them with new rescued hens, this would help stop/reduce the use of animals for our own gain.

DD is vegan and doesn't eat eggs. But says if we had some rescue hens and they laid she'd consider it.

You’ve probably already figured it out now from the long thread, I’ve only read the OP, but basically technically, no, eating eggs can never be vegan.

But there are people who are 95% vegan other than eating what they deem to be surplus eggs from chickens in their own garden that they’ve rescued, who are keeping the chickens for the pleasure of it and to give them a good home, make no financial gain from it.

Peter Singer is a good example, author of Animal Liberation.

Luna you are missing the point still. These hens will have existed anyway and will have been replaced, whether they end up at the end of their economical laying life being sent to the abattoir or being rescued. Rescuing hens that would have been killed will make no difference whatsoever to the cycle. That continues anyway and is awful.

The only difference it makes is to the lives of those particular hens. I don't know what you are missing that makes you unable to see that. Do you think that the hens are 'rescued' while still laying for the battery farm, so meaning the farm needs to replace them? That's not how it works. The farm wants to get rid of them once they reach a certain age so they are all sent off to be killed. A few are diverted to rescuers. Of course it won't change the awful egg industry - but while not changing it for the better, it also doesn't change it for the worse. The only, only impact is on the lives of those particular hens.

@bramblygarden Yes we all know about the males and the awful egg industry. But as my answer above points out - that isn't the point. These hens will have existed anyway and instead of being sent to be killed when they are no longer economical for the battery farm a few are diverted to rescuers. So taking on rescue hens in no way supports the battery farm, nor the killing of the males, nor any of that. It just helps those particular hens.

You do have an interesting point about rats though and that is something to ask about/think about.

thecatneuterer

This then

If you are not vegan, it makes sense to eat the eggs from the hens that you care for in your garden. That would be the kindest option. It's better than nothing imo.

@Myimaginarycathasfleas Well yes we all know that is the definition of a vegan and so ergo anyone who eats eggs can't be vegan. But if that was all there was to it we would all have agreed and got on with other things pages ago .

The question is really asking if eating eggs from rescue hens is against vegan principles. After all not many people make life decisions based on dictionary definitions or on whether the Vegan Society would make them give back their 'I'm a proper vegan, me' certificate if they ate an egg from a rescue hen. They make decisions based on their own conscience and understanding of the world. That is what this thread is discussing.

Luna - but why qualified with 'if you are not vegan'. Are you just talking about the dictionary definition as I mention in the post just above - you have eaten an egg ergo you aren't vegan? Or are you talking about principles?

Whether it's 'vegan or not I think eating eggs from a well cared for bird is fine. If chickens were truly free range they'd be savaged by foxes in an instant where I live!

The ethical considerations may be valid but that doesn't make you a vegan.

Veganism is about what you put in your mouth, the reasons for that choice are secondary.

You could argue that it's OK to eat a deer that died a peaceful death of old age - but doing so doesn't "qualify " you to be a vegan, even though there are reasons to make such consumption "ethical".

You can't justify eating meat or eggs within a vegan diet.

( I am not vegan or vegetarian BTW)

@speakout - but surely it depends why you're vegan? Otherwise, once again, we are just talking about dictionary definitions.

Just answering the question put by the OP @thecatneuterer. Happy to leave the wider ethical discussions to others

If the hens in this country anyway are 'truly' free range then they are at risk of contracting bird flu and probably in contravention of Defra requirements. Which is unethical in itself, and may lead to the flock being destroyed if they did contract a disease.
So even free-range is problematic.
At its most extreme, even collecting eggs from your rescue hens and donating them to a food bank or similar could be considered to be supporting the egg industry as it is facilitating consumer demand for eggs as a product to be consumed. Many vegans don't want to be seen to be endorsing consumption of animal products in any way. People could I suppose leave them out for wild animals like foxes and badgers & crows & rats to eat?
Wool is similar - even though wool is a by-product of the meat industry and very few sheep are bred specifically for wool, to purchase it is seen as bolstering demand for the sheep farming sector. So even though wool production is actually a welfare positive for the sheep (making them more comfortable in summer weather and less at risk of dreadful fly strike) and that wool is a more environmentally friendly material than artificial, plastic-based materials, wool is still not a vegan product.

Is veganism a diet, or a philosophy?

If just a diet then no, eating eggs can never be vegan, regardless of the provenance of the egg.

If it a philosophy based on causing no harm to or exploitation of animals, then theoretically eating the aforementioned deer who died peacefully of old age after a happy and natural life could be vegan, as no harm or exploitation has occurred to the deer while sentient.

Hens will naturally lay enough eggs to produce a 'clutch', then sit and incubate them until they hatch. By removing their eggs you are encouraging them to carry on laying every day, which is unnatural, which is why it's considered unethical. You are altering their natural behaviour for your own gain. Also, In the wild hens would live amongst males, so all their eggs would be fertile and therefor hatch, another example of how we have altered their natural behaviour. I think people should just go with their own gut feeling and if they feel morally ok with eating an egg from a rescued hen then so be it. The main reason I use the term 'vegan' to describe myself is because it's easier than listing off all the things I do and don't eat (these days I am 100% vegan, if there's such a thing, but when I was transitioning there were things I would still use/eat). I think personally though that instead of giving ourselves a label, we should be focusing on doing the least amount of damage to our planet, animals and ourselves, if that means buying a second hand pair of leather shoes instead of a pair of pvc trainers for example, I think that should be encouraged and not shot down!

On another note, the Vegan Society don't recommend that vegans don't have children, so that is an ethical contradiction right there.
However it seems that the 'should vegans reproduce' argument is a long-running and highly emotive one, quite removed from what the OP wanted to discuss so I guess I should not try to divert this thread even further!

@blueskiesandforests that's interesting to hear! Thanks x I'm vegan and was considering rescue hens purely to rescue them and had anticipated the behaviour I described (laying infrequently if I left them their eggs)

I think personally though that instead of giving ourselves a label, we should be focusing on doing the least amount of damage to our planet, animals and ourselves, if that means buying a second hand pair of leather shoes instead of a pair of pvc trainers for example, I think that should be encouraged and not shot down!

I agree with this 100%...instead of trying to catch people out or call 'hypocrite' for the one area where they might not fulfil the strict definition of vegan, let's be more positive about the ethical choices they/we are making.