To ask if eggs can ever be vegan

[GloryforGloves]

Before I discuss, let me share the definition of veganism from the Vegan Society website:

Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.

So, I understand fully that the egg industry is rubbish. Hens are confined, even if the box says free range; male chicks born as potential breeders are culled; old chickens are slaughtered. As a meat eater who buys into this, I get it’s shit. So I was wondering about alternatives.

Based on the definition above, I think it could be considered vegan to eat eggs from a rescue chicken who was keep in a happy, free range environment - a large back garden with a suitable setup. You are not breeding the animal for a specific purpose and I wouldn’t consider that exploitation as the chicken would lay regardless - in fact you are saving an animal that would have otherwise be slaughtered.
Instead you provide the chicken a comfortable, safe place to live and you enjoy it’s waste product.

I know some (most?) vegans say no animal product at all - but I think there has to be a reason for that stance - if it’s for ethics, then is this unethical?

What are your thoughts? Could rescued, well loved chicken eggs be considered vegan?

[Lushlemming]

The cat

"I don't really care about animals not existing"

What a stupid counter argument. If you don't care about animals what's the point of being vegan.

If you had your way, the logical conclusion would be to exterminate all animals so none could be harmed.

If the last two Siberian Tigers were held captive in a zoo on a breeding programme, to try and save the species from becoming extinct, you would rather they were shot, so they weren't being held in captivity?

[thecatneuterer]

You seem to be deliberately not understanding. I care very much about individual animals. I want them to live a full, long, pain free, natural life if they do exist. What I don't want is for them to be bred and that's what we are talking about. If demand for meat decreases, less animals will be bred. That's it.

I'm don't really mind good zoos. As long as the animals aren't suffering that's fine. I never said anything about captivity. But if they die out altogether then I'm not that bothered either, as long as no individuals suffer or are harmed, or indeed killed or shot.

[thecatneuterer]

Maybe you would have understood more easily if I'd said 'I don't really care about species not existing'. Or 'I don't care about potential animals that haven't and won't be born'. Is that clearer?

[speakout]

So it's possible to be a vegan and eat meat and eggs.

I despair.

[Ihaventgottimeforthis]

thecatneuterer animals' 'natural' lives are often short, violent and filled with pain, hunger, fear and suffering. Their deaths are often brutal and painful.

Is that really better than years of being fed, cared for, treated and loved by humans?

[thecatneuterer]

speakout It's possible to eat meat in eggs in very the rare and specific circumstances discussed without causing any harm to animals. And if you are living by vegan principles which are not to cause harm to animals (if this isn't your motivation for being vegan then of course this doesn't apply), then you are not going against those principles.

By a strict dictionary definition we all agree you wouldn't be 'vegan', but we are talking about principles here, not definitions.

[thecatneuterer]

hecatneuterer animals' 'natural' lives are often short, violent and filled with pain, hunger, fear and suffering. Their deaths are often brutal and painful.

Is that really better than years of being fed, cared for, treated and loved by humans?

Absolutely - where have I said I don't agree with that? What I don't want is for them to be specifically bred for the meat and dairy industry.

[speakout]

thecatneuterer

That may be your definition of vegan- but it is not widely shared.

[thecatneuterer]

SirGarwin and bellinisurge. Once again you are talking about dictionary definitions. This thread isn't really about that.

[thecatneuterer]

I said 'living by the vegan principles of not causing harm to animals'. I know what the dictionary definition of vegan is. No one is disputing that.

[derxa]

All the male calves are killed soon after birth as part of milk production, and the female is only kept as long as she is in full milk production, which is I think only a couple of years, and then they too are killed. Where do you get your information from? I grew up on a dairy farm and we sometimes had cows on their 10th lactation. Anyway this website entry is much closer to the truth.
thefarmuponthehill.com/2017/08/20/myth-busting-cow-lifespan/

[speakout]

thecatneuterer


It;s not vegan though.

[icannotremember]

Is that really better than years of being fed, cared for, treated and loved by humans?

Animals used for meat, eggs and dairy are not cared for, treated and loved by humans (apart from a tiny handful of specialist ethical producers). Given the choice between not existing and experiencing the existence of a battery hen or a cow on an intensive dairy farm, I would chose the former every time.

[thecatneuterer]

derxa I have no first hand knowledge of this it's true. However even that link doesn't disagree that the majority of cows don't die of old age and very, very few bulls make it to maturity let alone old age. That alone is enough.

[thecatneuterer]

speakout. How many times? I know what the definition of vegan is. What I'm saying is it's not against ethical vegan principles, therefore any vegan who cares more about their principles than the label should be ok with it if that's what they want to do.

[FelicisWolf]

My vegan friend keeps rescue chickens (as well as various other animals) and eats their eggs as she knows they have come from a cruelty-free environment. She still classifies herself as vegan.

[derxa]

derxa I have no first hand knowledge of this it's true. You can object to the dairy industry but don't spread misinformation as facts.

[oldwhyno]

"speciesism" "the chicken is always exploited" etc. What poppycock. Nature is full of examples of facultative symbiosis. There's a big overlap in the Venn diagram of veganism and misanthropy.

[springtimeyet]

I grew up surrounded by dairy farms as well as some other types. The animals were killed when surplus to requirements and the cows were milked. They were also treated with respect and care by the farmers. Poorly looked after animals don't milk well and they are expensive investments. There have always been easier ways of making a living so farming it isn't just about money either. I understand the ethics around a vegan way of life but I don't think demonising farmers is helpful. You only have to look at how farmers reacted to food and mouth to understand that they don't think of their animals as machines.

[Ihaventgottimeforthis]

thecatneuterer a natural life for an animal is usually a lot worse than one where humans are caring for it, a pet for example, or animals in a zoo, or livestock even. Which are not vegan.

icannotremember dairy cows are often quite content on dairy farms. They are quite simple animals really. Battery hens? yes, I would rather they didn't exist.

[thecatneuterer]

I didn't mean 'natural' in that way. I meant to the end of it's natural life span, with the chance to exhibit as many natural behaviours as possible. Being cared for is obviously a good thing.

[thecatneuterer]

derxa - it's not wildly inaccurate though is it? And I did say I wasn't sure about the average age of a cow when it's killed. What percentage of bulls make it to maturity let alone old age?

[MadToBeMe]

@FelicisWolf she might classify herself as vegan, but if she eats eggs then she is vegetarian not vegan.

[thecatneuterer]

@MadToBeMe And once again everyone knows the definition of vegan. But we are talking about whether it goes against the ethics of causing harm to animals, which is why most people are vegan. That is really what is being discussed.

Have you read any of the thread?

[speakout]

Veganism is not just about ethics though- it;s about the practicalities of consumption.

People may be vegan for different reasons, ethical, religious, ecological, health, aesthetics- if they only consume plant food then they are vegan.

The reasons are secondary.

If someone decided to become vegan for aesthetic reasons because they don't like the mouth feel of meat, would they still be vegan if they only ate minced meat?

They would be eating meat and therefore not vegan.

The same is true for "ethical" vegans.

If they eat meat or eggs thay are not vegan, no matter what the circumstance of how the food came to be on their plate.