AIBU to wonder if surrogacy is a bit cruel?

[NRGR]

Firstly I'd like to say I think someone being able to give a couple the opportunity to be parents is a lovely thing! I don't mean this in a nasty way.

When a baby's born they say they instantly know who mum is, by the sound of her voice, her smell, heartbeat etc. So taking that into account, is it a bit mean to take that baby after it's born and pass it straight to someone else? One of the first things they say to you when you have a baby is have plenty of skin to skin because you are all the baby really knows.

Surely regardless of whether the surrogate used her own eggs or not, as far as the baby's conserned she is mum and she will be the one the baby wants.

"Cruel" is the wrong word I think but it just made me wonder.

#peachmelba78
If u are that scared of child birth why are u doing it?

Caxx I wasn’t but all of the surrogate threads have made me fearful!

come from people who are also pro-choice on abortion right up to full term

I don't think anyone, or extremely few, are pro-choice up to full term. I think most agree that the current deadlines, which are advised by the medical profession are about right.

Extremely few abortions are performed late and these are usually in upsetting circumstances.

When I gave birth I was told immediate skin to skin was very important for the newborn and that your nipples give off the same scent as in the womb so the baby knows that it's still with it's mother for breastfeeding.

I'm talking about pheromones (just looked it up). Babies learn to recognise their mother's pheronomes whilst they are still in the womb.

It's been studied in other mammals and it enables mothers and babies to recognise each other.

Any birth has the possibility of mother and infant mortality, if it worries you then you should probably avoid any philosophical/theoretical discussions about the rights of children being born to order - people are always going to discuss extreme scenarios.

SittingAround I am pro-choice (as early as possible, as late as necessary, for any reason or none). I don't believe in forced co-erced birth.

I am anti commercial surrogacy because I don't believe in forced or co-erced birth.

I don't see how the two views are incompatible?

Sorry, that was more for Kokeshi, but linked into Sitting's reply.

I am against social surrogacy 100%. I am also against surrogacy abroad. However I do understand why IPs go to the US despite it costing them a ridiculous sum - IPs in the US have more control over the outcome than they do here. That said, that control should only go so far. Telling someone where they can go & what they can eat is outrageous

SweetheartNeckline I agree with you, they're not incompatible.

My reply to Kokeshi was to point out that everyone pretty much everyone agrees that abortion should be as early as possible.

But this isn't an abortion debate thread, sorry to derail.

I often wonder as to the motivation of surrogates. Is it truly an altruistic act or a narcissistic need for the attention of pregnancy and the empowering feeling of creating life? Are those who do it for relatives driven by guilt that they are fertile while their relative is not?

You'd have to ask my friends for their honest answers, as I can only go on how they explained it to me when I challenged them as to why the hell would they offer to be a surrogate, why on earth would they want to put themselves through pregnancy for someone else? I certainly couldn't get my head around it.

Their reasons were very similar - again I don't know what they'd say to someone else (which is why implications counselling is so important - I see the job of the counsellor as essentially to try and talk anyone considering being a surro out of it):

That their children were their world and they couldn't imagine life without them, and how devastated they felt they would have been if they hadn't been able to become parents.

2 said they really enjoyed being pregnant but had no desire for another baby. They described it more in terms of feeling empowered at creating life than about a desire for attention, though of course that doesn't mean that's not going on as well.

They all said they were so sad that our dreams of having a family had been shattered, and that they wanted to help us to experience the deep love and joy of raising a child that they felt. How far 'guilt' is a factor that is a good question.

1 said that she considered egg donation when she was younger, to help others have a family, as she felt strongly that it was something she wanted to do. The result of the implications counselling was that she realised she wasn't fully comfortable with a child being created with their DNA, and didn't proceed with being a donor. She said that being able to help a close friend to create a family, without having a direct genetic link to the baby, and being able to see that baby grow up, felt like a rewarding life activity.

None of that means they wouldn't be putting themselves at risk if they did go through a pregnancy and birth to help us, and that this could have devastating consequences.

And I'm aware that if a baby was born and went to me skin to skin, and if I breast fed our baby, that we don't know if that could cause irreparable damage because it wouldn't be the same smell as in the womb.

The evidence so far suggests that the psychological wellbeing of surrogacy born children, who know & have contact with their birth mother, is no different to other children, but there's not much data yet, and I know we don't know the long term effect. I'm only aware of data for children who are the genetic children of the intended parents, and for opposite sex couples only, so not familiar with data for donor conception or international surrogacy.

I don't know how we will proceed because I'm very aware of all the issues being discussed, and don't take them lightly. I respect that others will think I'm disgusting and selfish for considering it, and I agree that these issues need to be discussed.

I'm deeply uncomfortable with commercial surrogacy for the avoidance of any doubt.

Not a derail imo, to mention other related issues, but agree this thread is not the place to explore abortion in depth. But re your pheromones comment, I read that colostrum has the same flavours as the amniotic fluid. The mother (and I use the term to mean the person who gestates the fetus) / child relationship is fascinating from a biological point of view and there is much we don't know.

I agree OP and have always thought the same. I also feel this way about surrogacy where there are two fathers. I think it's cruel to deny a baby it's mother/a mother. They will always feel that something is missing.

Besides the impact of IVF on natural selection and life long health implications we do not know about yet (due to the short period of time it's been happening),

We don't know the long term side effects yet, as Louise brown has only just turned 40

That's one reason why I support legislation to force better monitoring of long term outcomes of mothers and children born via IVF, and the sharing of the HFEA data with NHS data

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09/16/ivf-mothers-babies-urgent-need-health-check-database/

In terms of natural selection, most infertility isn't inherited. But yes, without fertility treatment then many people with fertility conditions wouldn't be able to pass on their defective genes.

I often think about how my husband would be able to have children if we was with someone else, because I'm the one with the fertility problem - it's because of my womb problems that he will be the last of his family line (no siblings or cousins). He is awesome and wish there were kids with his genes in the world, when I think about some of the total twats who father shitloads of kids who they DGAF about!

True natural selection would mean he would leave me to find another mate to breed with, for the survival of the fittest. Thankfully he isn't driven by the evolutionary desire to pass on his genes and loves me for who I am, and tells me he has got everything he wanted, and anything else is a bonus.

SittingAround I am pro-choice (as early as possible, as late as necessary, for any reason or none). I don't believe in forced co-erced birth.

I am anti commercial surrogacy because I don't believe in forced or co-erced birth.

No you’re not. You’re anti-forced birth but when it comes to surrogacy you feel that the law should step in to tell women what they can do with their own bodies. You’re not pro choice, you’re pro abortion.

You’re just as bad as any pro lifer, you think women only have a right to do as they wish with their own bodies if you approve of whatever it is they want to do.

I am anti forced abortion and don’t think women should be forced to have abortions. But I’m pro choice because I think women have a right to choose abortions if that’s what they want.

Calling a western woman who goes through with surrogacy within their countries laws of their own free will a ‘forced birth’ is quite frankly laughable.

I haven’t had time to read the full thread but I wanted to post because I have direct experience from both sides - I was a surrogate baby myself back in the 1990s, and I currently work in child protection so I have a good personal and well as professional understanding of children being raised by non-biological family.

Honestly, my experience of being a “surrogate child” for lack of a better term was quite negative. I’m incredibly grateful to be alive due to surrogacy, but still wish that it wasn’t a part of my life.

My parents were unable to conceive due to my mum having cancer in her 20s and into her 30s. By the time she was well and had been in remission long enough to consider parenthood, both of my parents were in their early 40s and unable to adopt at the time due to their age. They were wealthy, and could afford to travel from our home in Australia to a fertility clinic in California where they literally paid a woman a significant sum of money to conceive a child for them.

Their first child (my sister) was conceived with a traditional gestational surrogacy - my parents went through IVF, the embryo was transferred into the surrogates womb. After many attempts and tens of thousands of dollars, my sister was born.

My parents went back to the same surrrogate to have a second child, but they had several failed IVF cycles. The surrogate offered to use her own egg, and I was conceived. When I was born, I left the hospital with my (technically adoptive) mother, and returned to Australia 6 weeks later.

At the time, surrogacy was very much a taboo. Commercial surrogacy was illegal in Australia, my parents were even approached by several journalists to tell their story (thank god they refused!).

I had no idea that my mum was completely unrelated to me until I was 16. It was genuinely traumistising when I did find out. I cannot emphasis enough that non-biological parents must be honest and open with their children from the very beginning, thankfully this is the current professional advice.

I decided to meet my biological mother, the experience was very upsetting and I continue to struggle with my cultural identity. It’s possible to have amazing adoptive parents, and still yearn for biological family as well, or have complex feelings about surrogacy.

I really don’t understand why you think of the experience as cruel for the baby - from the time I was born I bonded as any other baby would to my non-biological mother. I had a strong attachment with my mum, and she loved me as much as she would have if she’d given birth herself. Ask any adoptive parent how they love their child, and respect a similar response.

Now that I work in child protection, I see children thrive when they have stable, loving and supportive parents - regardless of their biological connection to that parent.

CGaus I'm so sorry for what you've been through. I can't imagine concealing a fact like that from you. Or being denied a relationship with the woman who gave birth to you.

I can only imagine how complex the feelings that must raise.

As a potential IP (though with our own embryos) it's reassuring to hear about the bond with your family, but I'm sad that you were denied the information and relationship that was rightfully yours.

CGaus thank you for sharing your story. Can I ask, do you think you would have felt differently about the surrogacy aspect if you hadn't been hidden from it?
I am firmly of the belief that any child born of surrogacy or donor eggs/sperm should be told once they are old enough to explain. Our kids are told our IPs tummies don't work for example so we help them, and younger surro babies are told of their 'tummy mummy' until they are old enough to understand more. It is imperative to be open & honest I believe.

Augusta once money enters the equation, (I specifically stated commercial surrogacy, which I'm willing to bet is ALWAYS richer people paying poorer women to take on the risks of pregnancy and birth) I do believe the choice stops being a truly free one. Doing it for a sister or friend for expenses only is different and more nuanced imo and afaik that's the only legal way to be a surrogate in the UK. I don't think selling kidneys or blood should be allowed either and am glad it isn't in this country.

I'm absolutely not pro-abortion and don't know of anyone who is, what a ridiculous thing to say. I'm pro-choice.

I know two people who have gone through surrogacy in order to have a baby (or babies). One had twins through surrogacy after years of infertility treatment and ended up chosing to go through surrogacy, the twins are genetically related to the father but not the mum and she has chosen to only tell her close family about it, everybody else think the twins are hers and she has made the decision not to tell the twins about their birth story.

I do not personally agree with the choice of not telling them the truth but they are now 5yo and perfectly bonded to their parents and have no suspicions whatsoever that they mum isn't genetically their mum or the one who carried them.

Now I currently share a house with a couple who has a 6 months old who is born through surrogacy, they have a totally different approach to it. His conception (both sperm donor and egg donnor) as well as birth story (surrogacy) is completely known by all and non taboo, they have pictures of his egg and sperm donor for him to look at later on if he wants to (and they've both said they would be willing to meet him when he is 18 if he wishes) as well as pictures of his surrogate.

I know his surrogate and they didn't pay her, what happens is she didn't want kids AT ALL but had always been curious about being pregnant so she volunteered. When she gave birth she felt no maternal rush whatsoever towards the baby and while she doesn't dislike him you couldn't pay her to keep him. She came to visit him two weeks ago and she said she just doesn't really like babies (wasn't really comfortable holding him etc...), the baby himself wasn't really more interested in her than he is anybody else and I don't think he could tell who she was at this point, nor cared much and definitely wasn't the person he wanted to be with at all.

It's too early to say what the impact on his life will be and I am sure there will be some soul and identity searching as he is obviously not related to his parents and has had 5 people involved in his making BUT right now (as he lays next to me) I can sincerly say he is all but traumatized about it and is a pretty happy kid so far.

Pissedoffdotcom - I probably would have felt differently about surrogacy had I known from the beginning. As it is I fell very uncomfortable with commercial surrogacy. As a 16 year old I saw the situation as adoption essentially, I felt that my birth mother sold me, that she loved money more than her child. I rejected my mother for years, and actually went to live with my father overseas (my parents were divorced by this stage). My reaction was extreme, but not unexpected for a teenager.

If I had always known surrogacy was a part of my life, I doubt that would have happened.

At the same time, I have so much empathy for couples/individuals who can’t conceive themselves, and I know how difficult adoption is (in Australia at least). If I was in my mum’s position back in the 80s/90s, I may have taken the same path as her because the desperation, the natural urge to be a parent can be so strong that you will do almost anything for a baby.

As it is now I feel so incredibly grateful that I was able to conceive quickly myself. I chose to have children younger than I maybe would have otherwise because I had such a crippling fear that I would struggle to become pregnant and have to go through the ordeal of fertility treatment or fostering/adoption/surrogacy because motherhood has always been so important to me.

This is one of the main reasons why I struggle with commercial surrogacy.
My parents gave their surrogate more money that she could have earned in several years. Whilst she entered into the contract voluntarily, I’m sure she must have been influenced by the money. She had a low income, low educational achievement and had been a single parent. My parents were strangers to her, she wouldn’t have taken on all the risks of pregnancy if she had nothing to gain from it. Like you, I’m really grateful that commercial surrogacy is illegal.

That being said, of course I’m happy to have been born through commercial surrogacy, without it I wouldn’t be here.

My parents gave me a wonderful life, they were great, loving parents but their wealth also allowed me to be privately educated, to travel and have every privilege in life. Had my biological mother kept me, my life would have been very different.

Linning where are you? Just curious as in the UK there has to be a biological link to at least one of the intended parents. A sperm AND egg donor would be illegal (currently) in the UK. I know of a couple of surrogates who were randomly asked by CAFCASS to consent to DNA testing (obviously straight surrogacy not gestational) before their PO hearing.

CGaus I completely get what you're saying. I can't imagine being told that after 16 years. It was something I was very firm about when I entered my match - altho of course not legally binding, certain specifications were written into our agreement before we started TTC. I wanted no part in a child being lied to

Now I currently share a house with a couple who has a 6 months old who is born through surrogacy, they have a totally different approach to it. His conception (both sperm donor and egg donnor) as well as birth story (surrogacy) is completely known by all and non taboo,

Are you in the UK? I was under the impression that here the law requires at least one of the intended parents of a surrogacy agreement to be the genetic parent of the baby.