To ask why you aren’t vegan

[Whereisthecoffee]

I’m not vegan , I know it’s good for the planet kinder to animals etc but it’s something I just can’t seem to get to grips with. I’ve been thinking about starting vegan January but I’m not sure. Thinking about my choices and it’s prevalence in the media has made me curious about others so tell me why aren’t you vegan? I think my main reason is convenience.

The lining is, isn't it?

No, it isn't. The vast majority of cars contain no leather in their standard form. You might find some fitted with something like what VAG call a "small leather pack" option covering the steering wheel and other touch surfaces, but even that is relatively unusual. The chances of there being leather anywhere on a Yaris or a Fiesta are close to zero.

Yarnswift, if you think oat milk tastes like the bottom of a hamster cage I would suggest you have something wrong with your taste buds.

I wanted to stop using cow's milk because I think it's cruel and doesn't agree with my stomach. After trying just about all milks I found oat milk to be the best. DH had no intention of stopping using cow's milk but he found oat milk to taste the same in tea and coffee as cow's milk.

Also a few of my friends have not realised I put oat milk in their drinks.

People are entitled to not want to be vegan or vegetarian but making silly remarks or downright lies about things (such as having to take supplements etc) is really pretty childish and pathetic

mydog is it ok in lattes?

Schmoobarb, I have never tried it in lattes as I don't like milky drinks. The stronger the better for me where tea and coffee is concerned.

I can't believe the poster who said lots of cars have leather seats. Over the years we have had loads of cars but not one had leather seats. I also manage perfectly well not to wear leather shoes or use leather handbags. I can't wear wool because I am allergic to it

It's a little odd that as adults we still consume breast milk. Even more odd that we consume the breast milk of a different species? Since giving up cheese (I was a cheeseaholic veggie) my hormones are so much better. It makes sense really that as dairy is designed to be a whole food for fast growing calf that it would play havoc with the hormones of a human female.

Thanks mydog I might give it a go. Bizarrely I am not a big fan of milky drinks but I love my morning latte

Oat 'milk' is great the alpro one is out favourite in this house and yes it's fine in lattes etc. I also have coconut milk if I'm in Costa that's lovely and creamy.

The secret is to stop trying to compare it to cows milk and appreciate it for its own taste and flavour. I haven't had cows milk for a year now and the link between my taste buds and brain have changed. I gag if I smell warm cows milk now . It's all about giving change a chance and not to put cows milk up on this pedestal. There are lots of alternatives.

Downright lies about supplements?

I am a scientist, a biochemist. A vegan diet does not provide the b12 needed and supplementation is a must - some processed foods have b12 in, which is why some vegans think they’re not supplementing. But if you were eating ‘ground state’ type foods (ie no processing, as they appear in nature) you would require supplemental b12.

Things like oat milk are processed and contain added, supplemental vitamins. Oatly (which tastes foul to me, your taste buds may be less sensitive) has supplemental b12 in it.

B12 must be Added to a vegan diet one way or another. If you want to be vegan that’s your choice as an individual. I accept that people may not want to use animals and I acceltbthat as a reasoning, it’s a valid one.
But don’t justify it in terms of it being scientifically ‘better’ because it isn’t. The human body requires things a strict vegan diet can’t provide, hence many processed foods aimed at vegans are supplemented

I don't like milky drinks but a Costa coconut latte is divine-I agree! I do love coconut though!

Actually, if we were eating vegan ‘ground state’ type foods, as they appear in nature, we wouldn’t need B12 supplements - we’d be ingesting enough soil microbes for our needs. It’s only because our food is all farmed & cleaned that we don’t and hence the recommendation to supplement or eat fortified foods (which isn’t necessarily the same as processed foods). Odd that a biochemist wouldn’t know that! How do you think gorillas get their B12?

How do you think gorillas get their B12?

A very fast Google tells us they get the majority from termites and ants.b

Haha, good play are ants and termites particularly rich in B12 do you know? Substitute gorilla for a more strictly herbivorous species then, sorry for being simplistic. The point is, that no animal, plant or fungi species can synthesise B12. Bacteria can. We’re all reliant on bacteria for B12, ultimately. Taking it as a supplement is just more direct than via another animal.

B12 deficiency isn’t exclusive to vegans, either. Hence why personally I don’t find ‘but B12’ to be a decent enough reason to not be vegan, which is what the thread is about.

This isn't processed food.

- love the gorilla termite diet ...

But don’t justify it in terms of it being scientifically ‘better’ because it isn’t. The human body requires things a strict vegan diet can’t provide, hence many processed foods aimed at vegans are supplemented

Agree, and now that in many parts of the world we are able to supplement these foods and our diet, surely it's time to reassess whether we need to slaughter animals to get those nutrients??

PinkPanther... that's the very epitome of processed food

Unless there is somewhere in the world where there grows a yeast tree and the farmers just have to put netting underneath to catch the yeast flakes as they fall, then simply package them up and ship them off. It's as processed factory food as a pack of Supernoodles.

What's wrong with taking supplements anyway? Problem solved... end of.

What's wrong with taking supplements anyway

Nothing. Unless you're trying to convince people your diet is the epitome of healthy eating.

The problem with vegans is that they appear unable to say "I eat this food because I want to. I do not eat that food because I do not want to" as adults are perfectly entitled to. They instead produce increasingly tendentious arguments as to why their food preferences are the only correct ones and everyone else is stupid, misled or evil, and then double down on those arguments when they are challenged.

I couldn't care less what other people eat, but the consequences of that are theirs (don't like meat? Don't complain that steak houses aren't to your taste. Think every meal should contain meat? Don't complain that south Indian vegan curry houses aren't to your taste). I do however get bored by people droning on with spurious, unfounded arguments as to why their preferences are objective while my preferences are the result of my ignorance.

(Have been vegetarian bordering on vegan in the past, eat very little and reducing amounts of meat now).

😂 if you think nutritional yeast is the ‘epitome of processed food’ then you have a very warped sense of what ‘processed’ means. It’s a yeast grown and then preserved, in the same way many plants and animals are, it’s about as processed as frozen peas are.

I couldn't care less what other people eat, but the consequences of that are theirs

I understand your point, but can also see that many vegans or wish-they-were-vegans will not agree - as the consequences of meat production on the environment are everyone’s, the costs of poor national health are everyone’s (apart from the super rich). Personally I see a lot more of ordinary vegans (or would-be/almost) having to defend themselves for their dietary choices and beliefs than the other way around.

Supplements have only been around for, what, 50 years or so. The fact that these nutrients are so essential for life and wellbeing, yet haven't been around in supplement format for 99.99999% of human history on this planet shows that humans are evolved to be omnivorous meat eaters. Without the manufacturing capacity for making supplements (ie advanced industrial civilisations), humans would soon be goners on a vegan diet. Things going on like Brexit, conflicts, climate change, general unpredictable events will mean it's looking quite possible that there's going to be mass disruption to supply chains and manufacturing capacity leading to scarcity. There's also the question mark of the bioavailability of nutrients in supplement format. It's generally much more absorbable in its food format. Just eat real food in the first place and sack off the supplement purveyors (with the exception of vitamin D cos we don't get enough sunlight in winter, and anything recommended by your GP).

I'd like to be vegan but at the moment it just feels like an effort too far. I'm dealing with some health shit (and the resulting financial shit) plus caring for my disabled DH, and it's as much as we can manage between us to make a sandwich or bung some frozen crap in the oven most evenings. I'm actively reducing my meat consumption and to a lesser extent dairy but the daily thought that would need to go into ensuring that I was getting the right balance of nutrition while checking no animal products were involved, all within my reduced budget for food/groceries is just mental energy that I don't have to spare right now, and I'm not physically up to preparing more meals from scratch.

What Is Nutritional Yeast?
The production of nutritional yeast begins in highly-controlled laboratories, where a common yeast called Saccharomyces cerevisiae grows on one of three nutrient-deficient foods: sugar cane, beet molasses (usually genetically modified), or wood pulp. Lacking an external source of nutrients, the yeast makes its own.

Manufacturers then dry the yeast to preserve its nutrients. They usually spray it with hot gas, a process that causes thermal degradation and loss of nutrients. Nutritional yeast can also be eaten fresh (although this product is no longer available to buy) or dried with a more traditional method called “drum drying”.

traditionalcookingschool.com/health-and-nutrition/healthy-living-health-and-nutrition/why-nutritional-yeast-is-not-vegan-health-food/

Yep, absolutely just like flash freezing freshly harvested peas from the field

You wouldn’t get enough from soil bacteria. That’s a myth.

If you want to be vegan, be vegan. If your reasoning is that you find it unethical to eat animals or use them then say that. That’s a good reason.

What’s incorrect is using pseudoscience to argue it - you can’t get enough b12 from soil bacteria. You do need to supplement. I’ve even had people try to argue that humans have evolved being vegan - we haven’t, we are omnivores. It is possible to get everything you need from a vegan diet, but it’s not easy - nowhere near as easy as a vegetarian or omnivorous diet. And you will always need to supplement