to think there is something seriously wrong with our education system..

[TwinkleToes101]

when teachers are leaving in droves?

Just recently reading about record numbers of newly trained teachers giving up within 5 years (that was me 14 years ago), then on MN today partners having depression/breakdowns and all the posters who teach knew the person in question was a teacher...what the F is going so badly wrong with teaching??

I thought my reasons for leaving were personal: too little me time, too much low-level classroom disruption. Other postgrads I know left as I did because of work load. But don't other professions have high workloads/stresses?

There are no staff out there so we are hiring teachers who wouldn't get a job a few years ago... the dregs.

How on earth did they get through teacher training? I thought it was quite rigorous and challenging on the PGCE?

I think the issue is largely cultural and financial. There aren't the resources- and by this I mean human resources and physical resources- that there needs to be. There is a one-size-fits-all culture, with teachers being expected to be identikit drones who all teach in the same way, no longer allowed to act as professionals. Standards of behaviour have fallen, and so have the standards expected of children. Children are no longer accountable for bad behaviour and have far too much power/knowledge of their "rights" and are demanding of "respect" (that they have not earned and that they do not give to anyone else), whilst at the same time shrugging off all suggestions of responsibility and accountability for the actions, nor for their educational achievements.

I feel teachers are often containing a class, rather than able to manage any meaningful teaching. I think this is sometimes as they aren't good teachers but I suspect mostly it is to do with class size, the behaviour of the children, the constantly changing educational system and a 100 other factors. I also feel the ideological pushing of SEN children into mainstream school without putting in the resources they need to thrive is a travesty. Teaching is a thankless task and I wouldn't do it "for all the tea in china", as my grandmother used to say.

For this reason, I chose to send my DC to private prep. It is like night and day when compared to the local schools we saw and what I hear about my nephew's school. It has a calm atmosphere, small classes (10-12) with multiple groups within a form to allow this, and wonderful teachers who have time to do their jobs (or so it seems). There is an expectation of good behaviour and manners, rules are clear and strictly adhered to with the disciplinary system very clear. I'm not saying the children ar never badly behaved- I'm sure they are- but low level disruption is uncommon and any episodes of significant bad behaviour seems to be a "scandal" that all the children know about and a rare event. For instance, being sent to see the headmaster is something of a significant event (and something that you REALLY don't want). Headmaster is liked and respected, but a little bit feared by the children. They also seem to genuinely want to please him and make him proud of them.

They have longer days (8-4) but do at least an hour of games per day, and spend a lot of time doing interesting activities. There are specialist teachers for music/IT/PE/languages/science from year 2. From year 3 maths/english/languages and science are "streamed" by ability and extra support for those struggling a bit and those who are academic are stretched at a faster pace. By year 5 they have a form class for some subjects- e.g. PHSE/RE but have specialists for maths/english/foreign languages/latin and classical studies/science/IT/Geography/History and of course music and PE. They continue to be streamed.

When comparing the education my DC receive to that of my DN, I would say they are like night and day. I would say whilst my eldest is only 1.5 years older than my eldest DN, educationally I think DC is at least double that, probably more. I think a some of that is due to financial resources of the school (smaller class sizes and higher pupil:teacher/TA/support staff ration more generally) but I think a lot is due to the fact teachers are respected to teach without being told exactly what they must do and say; and also that behavioural expectations are high and the discipline is there.

sorry- correction:
I would say whilst my eldest is only 1.5 years older than my eldest DN, educationally I think DC is at least double that, probably more

should read "I would say whilst my eldest is only 1.5 years older than my eldest DN, the educational gap is at least double that, probably more"

I taught in the U.K. for several years...left as soon as I had my first baby and swore I would never return. I then moved back to Ireland (rep) and decided to give it a go over here and OH MY GOD...IT IS AMAZING!its a totally different ballgame! I have taught in Several schools and I have not had one child speak badly to me, parents don’t get involved in school business (in U.K. they moan about all sorts). The school day is actually shorter here and schools are pretty much shut an hour after finish time!!

PGCE used to be rigorous and you had to be Master's level. Then they started to make the course provider accountable for the number of satisfactory, good and outstanding passes from the PGCE. So the number of people suddenly graduating the PGCE with outstanding increased. References were often very trite and generic, so the school can't tell what the candidate is really like. Also, desperation for physics teachers in particular leads to poorer candidates being accepted onto the course; there were people I trained with who had low 2:2s and even a 3rd in physics. A similar issue follows maths and increasingly in chemistry. Some of the biology candidates could not do any maths! They attached huge bursaries to those subjects but it's not helping retention!

#Too much paperwork
#Planning
#Little shits
#Mummies who believe they’re child has X condition (as above they’re just little shits)
#Lack of discipline at home
#Just being the wrong temperament
#Lack of respect for the profession

@Justabetterplayer 👍👍👍🤣🤣🤣

When I trained bobbin in 1991, PGCEs were pass or fail and no one had or took MAsand my DH got accepted on to a maths PGCE with a 3rd . So, I don't think those are the issues. I do think the movement to schools as providers has actually been damaging in many cases.

@brizzledrizzle I can only suppose what the current pressures are in the universities to pass anyone who turns up off the street. The rise in pathways to teaching (to attempt to solve the recruitment and retention crisis, which has been an issue for over a decade but nothing substantial has been done to begin to solve it) means universities are competing with academy trusts and teaching schools to provide training. I imagine the financial pressure on universities for teacher training courses is immense. I also imagine the pressure from gvt is huge for the unis to send out armies of new recruits each year in order to hide the fact that teachers are leaving the profession in droves. In my own experience as a student teacher mentor and later the school coordinator, it became increasingly difficult to fail a student on PGCE.

Now there are several pathways into teaching, more and more school based, and I’ve seen some incredibly sad instances of student teachers being failed by their school. Schools are desperate to put a body in front of a class, so some will use student teachers as that body, but throw them completely in the deep end and fail to provide any decent training and support. If you’ve got no experienced teachers left in your school, who could provide that support and training anyway? Teachers have never been paid to offer their mentoring services to student teachers. It’s always based on goodwill and a recognition that we need to ensure there are good teachers in school when we leave. But when there are such heavy work loads on teachers, who are you going to let down? The students in your class or the student teacher who is struggling?

Earlier this week my 9 year old’s class and one other class were put together to watch a DVD. It was turned off after 10 minutes due to the noise the kids were making. Even with teachers present. When I was that age, sometimes the whole school was put together to watch a film with only 1 or 2 adults sitting in - and we watched it without fuss all the way through. Why can’t kids these days do that?

I have noticed an alarming increase in my area of kids being horrid to other kids even with their parents present. I’m sure that never used to happen! Some kids seem to think it’s their right to behave exactly how they want whenever and wherever they want. And woe betide anyone who dares challenge them!

There is a child in my 9 year old’s class who is extremely badly behaved. He swears at teachers and hurts other children. And yet there doesn’t seem to be anything the school can do about it - which must make teaching him and the rest of the class very difficult.

The gvt seem to have thrown a load of money to look like they’re addressing the recruitment crisis by making all these ‘get into teaching’ adverts. I watch them and feel sick. They do not represent the reality of teaching and I feel for people who have gone into teaching based on the adverts. I can just imagine them thinking teaching was all about changing lives, thrilling children in the classroom with amazing resources. Then they get to a school and realise that’s not the job anymore. It’s no wonder so many new recruits leave teaching. They have not been prepared properly. When I left, the statistic was that 40% of new teachers left within 5 years. The drop out rate on teacher training courses was huge, too.

And yet nothing was ever done to address the retention part of the crisis. I’ve never seen so many colleagues leaving before retirement. The day I left, I left with 11 other teachers, only one of whom was retiring. The others were way off retirement, leaving to start a new career. If nothing is done to stop teachers leaving, the system will collapse. I think schools have done an incredible job of hiding the reality from parents. One thing teachers will always do is rally round and attempt to pull more and more out of the bag to protect children in their care from the worst of it. When a vacancy can’t get filled, the other teachers will take on more and more work to fill the gap. When we manage to get qualified supply in, the other teachers will mark exams and write reports and run revision classes for that class (as it’s not in the supply teacher’s contract). When no one applies for a post, and there’s no one to fill a more senior role, the NQT or new teacher will take on head of dept, or maths coordinator role, because there’s no one else who can do it. The retention crisis is putting more pressure on the teachers left in teaching, and they’ll eventually break too.

I do think teachers are underpaid. But I don’t know of a single teacher who left because of lack of money. If you asked me what would draw me back to teaching, money would not be a factor at all. One of the things I’d need is more time to do my job. And for some professional respect from the gvt to actually do the job I trained for.

For the sake of balance I would like to say that its not always like that. I'm not a teacher but I've worked in primary schools for many years. I know several where whilst not perfect, staff turnover is low, many teachers are ambitious, teaching assistants aspire to be teachers, results are good and the general atmosphere is great. Good leadership plays a huge part. These are not in leafy areas either.

The answer to number one is usually the short attention span mobile phone culture. Now , when I put a DVD on, many of the DCs will attempt to whip their phones out or look bored very quickly. It isn't perceived as a treat any more.

We had a dead spell post year 11 mocks recently with some pointless time to fill and nothing to teach. 'Just talk amongst yourselves' is a thing of the past. I had a few hours of complete silnece while each child stared at their individual phone. I'd ban them tomorrow in my place. They have had a huge impact on many many things.

Sorry, thread moved on whilst I was typing! That was inreference to kits post.

I completely agree with kolo's post which sums up why I left teaching in the state sector; however, I don't think this sort of comment helps

#Little shits
#Mummies who believe they’re child has X condition (as above they’re just little shits)

I have worked as a primary teacher in deprived areas, in Youth Offending and I am now a specialist teacher for 11-16 year olds in a indie school. There is a huge link between undiagonised SEN, poor behaviour and low self-esteem.

The current system damages many of our children and Ihave met many parents who are desperate to get appropriate help and support for their DC and who are angry at teachers and schools for their perceived lack of support. I realise that doesn't help the teacher who has to deal with an angry, unco-operative student or an angry parent, but neither does assuming that every awkward and demanding parent is imagining their DC's difficulties or that the condition itself doesn't exist.

The focus should be on streamlined services which enable parents to get early diagnosis for their child, better funding for SEN and an acceptance that many of these children will need extra support (IMO The SEND Code of Practice puts too much emphasis on the responsibliility of the class teacher to ensure progress of children with quite complex difficulties without providing them with the means to do this) and an expectation that schools (including academies) will adhere to the Children and Families Act and the Equalities Act (and are given the funding to do this).

There also needs to be a complete review of the exam system which is not fit for purpose.

@thechristmastrinch hear, hear! The code of practice that I was teaching under (it was new to me then, but I imagine there’s been 2 new ones since I left 3 years ago) put so much responsibility on the class teacher to provide support for SEN. There are obviously planning responsibilities as a class teacher, but when you’ve got 30kids or more in a class, 20% with significant SEN, the teacher is never going to be able to meet all their needs and provide anything like adequate support. It’s basically a way for the LA/gvt to fob off parents without spending any money.

When I started teaching 20 years ago, things definitely were not perfect, but I felt more supported in supporting the SEN kids in my class. I had consistent TA support, a dedicated TA which meant we could talk to each other and plan properly. Sometimes I’d have 3 or 4 TAs in one class, because there were lots of SEN. There’d be funding for intervention, extra numeracy, and the ability to plan with the parents an appropriate curriculum and exam entry strategy.

When I left, I maybe had a TA for 2 lessons out of 30. That TA would be split between 12 kids with SEN, and had to dash off at the end of the lesson to another class so we’d get no time together to discuss strategies and evaluate support. So more and more I was being left alone to try to support these children. Children were being forced into completely inappropriate qualifications (because getting a child from a U target to an eventual G grade was very valuable
In terms of CVA. Awful.

silvercuckoo The other £75,000 has to cover heating, lighting, paper, glue, reading books, writing books, pens, pencils coloured pens and pencils, rulers, musical instruments, art supplies, pe supplies, science or technology supplies, SSA salaries (fist £10,000 per SEN child has to be funded by the school), site team salaries, cleaning stuffs, cleaners salaries, admin staff salaries, Headteacher salaries, TLRs, costs of CPD courses, health and safety, first aid supplies, payments to Local Authority/MAT central resources, supply teacher costs, attendance staff salaries, repairs and maintenance of buildings and grounds, carpets, fire alarm systems etc.

There weren't any grades when I did a PGCE - just pass or fail. Don't think anyone failed. But anyway there have always been shite teachers.

Piggy I have never worked in a secondary school in the last 10 years where there was a 'dead spell' in Y11 with nothing to teach. Every school I have worked in has been desperate for any scrap of curriculum time in Y11.
However, I agree that mobile phones should be banned in schools. Parents should limit their use at home. DH and I turn ours off as soon as he gets home and they are put away for the night and turned on as he dresses for work. DS and DD rarely see us use them.

Oh God, i don't - I hate banned phones as the kids are so determined to bring them in.

I then moved back to Ireland (rep) and decided to give it a go over here and OH MY GOD...IT IS AMAZING

I think Ireland is what the U.K. used to be like in terms of teaching culture.

One of the reasons we moved back to Ireland from the UK was the more relaxed primary school system here. Both teachers and pupils seem so much happier in Ireland.

I'm not a teacher btw, but have lots of friends in both countries who are. Most of the uk ones have quit or moved sideways. The Irish ones are thriving.

It was ridiculous to be told to do nc lessons about the finer points of grammar with half the class who couldn't read and didn't know the alphabet

This is the problem.
Ds stood no chance.

I went to school in the 1960s, tail end of the baby boom generation.
56 in my class consisting of 2 years lumped together. 1 teacher. No TAs or anyone in to help.

Primary school was there to teach you the basics. There were many children who couldn’t read or write till they were 9 or 10 years old some even went on to get the 11+ The teacher didn’t have to only teach the NC and hope some picked it up. They had the freedom to help those who were struggling.
Their responsibility appeared to be to get everyone literate and able to do their times tables and basics maths before secondary school and they did. Including one boy who had SN and had been brain damaged at birth which left him a little slow.
There was an obvious curriculum but it was up to the teacher how it was taught and what work he set the main group and the group who couldn’t read.
Essay on castles and moats for one group and spellings to learn with castle and moat type words and reading a paragraph from an essay the teacher had written about the subject for those that couldn’t read yet.

No homework. Everything taught in school.

We predominantly all came out literate. Able to add up. Those in secondary either went to the grammar or to the secondary modern which had various lessons that weren’t academic.

We didn’t need to get English and Maths O.Levels or CSEs to then go on to do a trade, hair dressing, typist etc
Even nursing you could do at 16 with only s handful of CSEs.
I wonder now if the reason there is a shortage of trades/nurses etc is because those that would do well in those careers are being denied entry to them because they haven’t got 1or 2 GCSEs that are pretty irrelevant to the course.

Oliversmumsarmy

This I think is where a lot of the bad behaviour stems from.
Pupils are bored stiff.
There is nothing to interest them.

This is just another excuse for behaviour.
Pupils are bored stiff because they expect to be entertained.
Some children have already decided that they won't engage in the 'dull' stuff backed up by parents that believe that their children can do no wrong.

Yes there are major issues with the system one of the main ones being that the onus for learning is being pointed at the wrong person.

We predominantly all came out literate. Able to add up.

You are aware that there is no evidence to back this up?
But you do realise that most pupils in secondary/grammer schools pre 1988 would have been there with no SEN pupils, no Extreme behavioural pupils, No checks and measures on what was being taught or what the children learnt.

So if you really want to go back to pre 1988 times in education, lets do so but do you also want to bring back special schools, borstal, expulsions on just the say of the head teacher etc. and also see parents that completely trusted teachers to the extent of hitting their children?

Oliversmumsarmy

Excellent post.

Primary teachers are expected to teach too much content. The focus should be on oral language, reading, writing and Maths with very early intervention for those who are struggling. There should be a renewed focus on subjects like Art, Music and Drama, which seem to have been squeezed off the curriculum, but bring benefits that cannot be quantified.

Unfortunately, when I started teaching, the teaching of reading and writing was dire and based on methods with little evidence of their effectiveness.At some schools I worked at, there was no cohesive approach and children seemed to be expected to pick it up by osmosis. Systematic phonics has improved the teaching for most children , but unfortunately there is still a "one size fits all" attitude and the pendulum has swung too far the other way.

The basic problem for much of education is that education policy is based on a political agenda, rather than looking at clear, evidenced based methods. The current system is about teaching children to pass exams often without any real understanding of the subject and without the students making the link between effort and acheivement (because it is the teacher who is expected to make the effort and who is penalised when students do not pass the exam. In the long term, this will impact on our economy and our society.