To think this is the most outrageous, peak trans inducing thing ever??

[ginpink]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/12/16/boys-can-have-periods-schoolchildren-taught-latest-victory-transgender/amp/

I was born in the UK and am white, can I identify as a mixed race immigrant? Are those things you can 'identify as' or you just are?

I always found it perplexing that apparently, it is perfectly fine to identify as the other sex - when there's extreme differences between the sexes and it was, until recently, acknowledged by all that we need sex segregated spaces - but not to identify into a race, even though much fewer laws would have to be changed to cater to transracial people (none that I know of, actually, discriminating against transracial people would fall under the laws against discriminating the mentally challenged so we wouldn't have to extend the anti-discrimination laws to people assigned white at birth ...) than to cater to the transgenderists (all laws giving women privacy and safety in hospitals, shelters, schools, prisons and public changing rooms and toilets.)

Permitting people to identify as oppressed racial or ethnic minority even though they were assigned white at birth (or vice versa, though I don't think many immigrants would be naive enough to think it would help them any) would be much easier than this gender stuff.

We also wouldn't have to change language for it, except of tacking a "cis" to, say "Ashkenazi Jews" or "Afroamericans" when warning about risk for some few genetic diseases, and add that transwhite people might also be at risk.

And yet, when Rachel Dolezal was found out to have been assigned white at birth, she was kicked out of the office she held as it was felt it should be held by a cis-black person.

Whereas people are fine with individuals who were observed to be male at birth winning women's sport competitions.

It doesn't make sense.

If, in today's society, we feel that the identity someone feels they have trumps all else, then why not let people identify as a different race?

I saw this yesterday and knew this what the thread would be about before I even opneded it! It’s utterly ridiculous.

I wish someone would answer the PP's question as to what 'peak trans' means.

I've always wondered.

I think it means 'no longer have sympathy or care'. Life seems to be easier for some to think they're in battle with men. They now conflate trans with male. They are unhappy with their lives and like to belong to a small in-group who are 'under attack' as it gives them a feeling of belonging.

I'm constantly amazed how some will spin anything they read to either support their views or be at war with them. The same reason some are so frightened with MRA and TRA yet at the same time suggest that rights are not finite.

The article linked to specifically speaks about any gender can have a period. Who here disagrees. One sex can have periods. All genders can. Am I wrong?

If a 10 or 11 year old girl cuts their hair and wears 'boy cut' tops and trousers they don't look noticeably different to a 10 or 11 year old boy.

They don't look different from a boy, no, but they do not look "like a boy". Boys don't get to monopolize unmarked child looks.

In babies, you can't tell which sex they are as long as they are clothed, but you wouldn't say that a baby girl who hasn't any feminine nonsense tacked on looks "like a boy". You would acknowledge that she looks like a baby.

(At least I hope you would - some people seem to disagree, hence glueing bows to babies' heads. )

Same with children pre-puberty.

There are very, very few girls who really have masculine faces and would ever be mistaken for a long-haired boy if they grew their hair long.
And since children can't choose how androgynous they look, it is rather unlikely that all, or even any of the transboys who get periods look like boys.

Rather more likely a confused teacher sends a tomboy with unfortunate facial features out of the room while discussing periods despite her protesting that she's a girl.

I wish someone would answer the PP's question as to what 'peak trans' means.

I did answer it.

You are being goady, and I would like to know where your sympathy for the girls who are forced to undress in front of males is, and for the women who are imprisoned with male rapists.

Children need to understand the distinction between sex and gender. Menstruation is a sex-based issue. Pretending that sex and gender are the same thing will not help trans kids. At the risk if sarcastic responses it would be great to have a word for XY people which is not considered transphobic.

People who are XY chromosomes, i.e Male, do not have periods, those who have XX Females do, however way they want to identify, does not change biology. Those with XY chromosomes i.e. Male cannot suddenly have periods.

@HestiaParthenos

"I did answer it."

Not really. I read you reply but thought it quite aggressive to say that it avoided answering the question. These threads are usually aggressive enough without my accidentally adding to it.

For many, gender and sex are synonymous and there's no need to make the distinction. Transexual and transgender have blurred the lines. I'm not sure about the difference and always need to check as to whether I mean transwoman or transman.

"You are being goady"

No, but that is another meaningless term on MN. A way of shutting down someone you may disagree with. The same as 'triggering'?

"I would like to know where your sympathy for the girls who are forced to undress in front of males is, and for the women who are imprisoned with male rapists."

I see you're another person who conflates trans with male. Why is that? A right for a won transman is the same as a right won for a transwoman.

I can't imagine that anyone is forced to undress in front of anyone. Is that not a crime? Sexual assault?

You completely ignored my reference to sex and gender. Do you think that any gender can have a period but only one sex can? If so, what's your issue with the link?

You mention being worried about women. How about teenage boys seeing someone in the male bathrooms having problems with menstrual blood. If you're worried about them (which I'm sure you'll claim you are), why did you only mention females?

Children need to understand the distinction between sex and gender. Menstruation is a sex-based issue. Pretending that sex and gender are the same thing will not help trans kids.

^^This.

For many, gender and sex are synonymous and there's no need to make the distinction.

When talking sex education it is pretty fundamental to make the distinction.

They don't look different from a boy, no, but they do not look "like a boy". Boys don't get to monopolize unmarked child looks

But they're not unmarked child looks. Our society has decided that certain clothes and hair cuts make children look like boys and other hair cuts and clothes make children look like girls. And because 99% of children and parents conform to this it becomes what we recognise boys and girls to look like.

Going against that norm doesn't make the child the opposite sex. But it can signify their wish to be the opposite gender. And therefore, unless we get this perfect world where nobody makes any assumptions about a person's sex based on their appearance or behaviour, we will continue to get children doing the only thing they feel they can to allow them to be themselves - identify as the opposite gender. So children that appear to the outside eye to be boys will have periods.

Is no one studying biology in the UK anymore?
There are sex differences, of course. Why is that such a big deal.
The female of the species has periods for a certain time in their adult lives. Not males. How is this so difficult to grasp?

@jellyfrizz

And the article cited used them correctly.

So, what's your issue?

If you read my post on p2 you'll see I said I didn't have an issue as long as sex and gender weren't conflated.

You were suggesting that there is no need to make the distinction peak.

For many, gender and sex are synonymous and there's no need to make the distinction.

When there absolutely is a need when discussing sex/biology.

I can't imagine that anyone is forced to undress in front of anyone. Is that not a crime? Sexual assault?

No, it is called changing rooms. Which according to genderists, girls and women should have to share with males.

Girls who ask for privacy are accused of "hating trans people", and this, too, you very well know and I don't have to tell you. It happened on this very thread.

I see you're another person who conflates trans with male.

See, that is why I call you goady. Because it is goady.

I am well aware there are trans identified females, and you know this. You just pretend to misunderstand me so you can accuse me of nonsensical things that I never said. Goady.

However, the existence of trans identified females doesn't a thing to change the fact that genderism takes away women's rights.

Men only suffer a loss of privacy from the whole nonsense, they are not likely to be raped by trans identified females in men's prisons.

But even if men suffered as much as women, that wouldn't make the genderism nonsense right. (It would just mean it wouldn't ever have been considered. Because men, as a class have the power to protect their spaces.)

The female of the species has periods for a certain time in their adult lives. Not males. How is this so difficult to grasp?

It isn't. But there are female 'boys' (I don't really know what to call them - TIFS?') hitting puberty and starting their periods. Realistically their teachers cannot call them girls, even though they are females. They have to respect their wishes to be 'he' and have male names. Therefore we have to teach children that boys can and do have periods. Males can't. But boys can.

I think it would help if the terminology was a little more distinct. Sex and gender are easy to separate. But male/female and man/woman seem to get mixed up a lot more. Is male/female specific to sex and man/woman to gender? Or the other way round? Or are they used interchangeably? It would be easier if they were distinct
eg - sex can't be changed and you will always be either male or female but some people choose to change their gender so girls/women can choose to call themselves boys/men and vice versa.

@jellyfrizz

I'm reading on a phone. I don't remember what people said pages back.

So, we agree that there are times when sex and gender need their distinctions. My point was that they're used correctly in the article linked to and therefore I have no idea why the usual suspects are all offended. Well, I know why they're offended but maybe they will see their mistake.

So, why are you outraged or peak transed by the suggestion that both (or all) genders can have periods? Why is this wrong?

@HestiaParthenos

"Men only suffer a loss of privacy from the whole nonsense"

Bullshit. In this very example, males can be sharing a bathroom with someone having their first period, smearing menstrual blood around the room and generally making the tiles look like a murder scene.

"they are not likely to be raped by trans identified females in men's prisons."

Impossible in the UK. In the US where laws are less sexist, male prisoners are much more likely to be assaulted by women in a position of power than vice versa. Does that help?

So, we agree that there are times when sex and gender need their distinctions.

Glad we agree peak, when you wrote this "For many, gender and sex are synonymous and there's no need to make the distinction." It sounded as though you didn't think there was a need to make the distinction.

Bullshit. In this very example, males can be sharing a bathroom with someone having their first period, smearing menstrual blood around the room and generally making the tiles look like a murder scene.

WTF?

I wish someone would answer the PP's question as to what 'peak trans' means.

'Peak trans' means 'I am no longer going to allow myself to be gaslit by this utter horseshit'.

HTH

'Peak trans' means 'I am no longer going to allow myself to be gaslit by this utter horseshit'.

Thank you, that is really concise and to the point.

I apparently didn't get the point across as clearly in my explanation.

"It sounded as though you didn't think there was a need to make the distinction."

I usually don't think there is. There was a thread about it recently. I didn't get involved.

For the most part, I think sex and gender are synonymous. Sometimes we need very clear distinctions. Usually, we don't. The same in most walks of life. The need for exact language is infrequent. Clearly inverse to its use.

"WTF?"

I am bored of posters like the one I mentioned (is at-ed a verb yet?) conflating trans people and males. Trans are approx 50:50 male and female. In the eyes of the law, they're the same.

The poster spoke of poor girls blah blah etc. In this case, I think xy are more likely to be shocked by a menstrauting person in their bathroom than vice versa. I don't know why this becomes a feminist (anti-trans / male) issue.

My first few periods were messy.

Bullshit. In this very example, males can be sharing a bathroom with someone having their first period, smearing menstrual blood around the room and generally making the tiles look like a murder scene.

What a bizarre sentence! I even went to an all girls school and never once saw a bathroom, or I presume you mean toilets, of this description in the 7 years I was there.

I even went to an all girls school and never once saw a bathroom, or I presume you mean toilets, of this description in the 7 years I was there.

I suppose he* saw the boy's toilets smeared with shit and urine and inferred that girls must smear period blood everywhere because they can?

I mean, I wouldn't know, I never went to a boy's toilets, I wouldn't have assumed there was anything worse than blocking the loo with toilet rolls going on - that being an offense that is talked about.

Perhaps I have overestimated the cleanliness of the average individual of the male sex.
(My male relatives thankfully don't smear anything around the room, but I guess they could be exceptions?)