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Original poster

To want David Cameron's head on a platter?

121 replies

Ladymargarethall · 13/12/2018 07:49

If he hadn't given in to pressure from Tory back benchers we would still be bumbling along in Europe.

OP posts:
Justanotherlurker · 14/12/2018 08:39

www.theguardian.com/world/2004/apr/20/eu.politics6

Bohemond · 14/12/2018 08:39

Alec is right. We voted leave, Trump is President - same reason.

GrannyJillS · 14/12/2018 08:41

It's the general publics stupid fault for believing the crap. I don't blame DC at all.

SergeantPfeffer · 14/12/2018 08:59

Does anyone genuinely believe that Cameron called the referendum for the benefit of the Labour Party Hmm
It was as much to do with his own backbenchers as UKIP. And the threat from UKIP was to a Tory majority, not democracy in general.

Justanotherlurker · 14/12/2018 09:02

Does anyone genuinely believe that Cameron called the referendum for the benefit of the Labour Party hmm

No, but to suggest it is solely because of the Tories is also just as silly and ignores the vote leave contained MPS from all parties...

And the threat from UKIP was to a Tory majority, not democracy in general.

Slight revisionism, they were taking labour strongholds just as much as they were gaining strongholds in tory areas

SergeantPfeffer · 14/12/2018 09:10

Yes, but the referendum wasn’t to protect labour strongholds, was it? At the end of the day, would labour have held an EU referendum if they had been voted in rather than Cameron? No. This was and is a tory issue. It’s tory members that are pro leave and predominantly tory mps (with a small number of labour exceptions). The labour membership are overwhelmingly remain.

Original poster
Ladymargarethall · 14/12/2018 09:13

Definitely Tony Blair's too. I started a post saying DC and TB should be sent off together to a desert island (with no film crew, no back up and definitely not eight gramaphone records and a book of their choice).

OP posts:
lucydo · 14/12/2018 09:15

The labour membership are overwhelmingly remain and Labour constituences are, I believe overwhelmingly leave. Who should Labour MPs be representing in all this? Surely their constituences?

FWIW I think Brexit is merely one expression of what is happening in Europe as a whole, particularly France and Italy. A groundswell of anti-EU feeling across several countries.

lucydo · 14/12/2018 09:17

coming back to Labour, until very recently Labour was anti-Europe anf the Tories were pro. It's been quite entertaining seeing Corbyn trying to avoid having to take any kind of position on this.

Justanotherlurker · 14/12/2018 09:20

Yes, but the referendum wasn’t to protect labour strongholds, was it? At the end of the day, would labour have held an EU referendum if they had been voted in rather than Cameron? No.

The referendum wasn't to protect tory strongholds either, as I have said Tony Blair and Gordon Brown both offered a referendum, the fact that UKIP was gaining power from both parties meant it was an attempt to cut them off at the knees, you cannot give a hypothetical Labour would not have given one as the political landscape would be vastly different.

The labour membership are overwhelmingly remain.

That maybe so, but a large percentage of labour strongholds voted leave, that's one reason why labour is in a crisis and why they now have an ardent Bennite leading the party.

AdamNichol · 14/12/2018 09:37

Cameron had little choice but to offer a vote in the face of the rise in popularity of UKIP. It was a no-win situation in my opinion - offer the people a chance to have a say on the issues Farage said were important or stand by and let him take over the country and fuck it over good and proper.

UKIP were not and were never going to be a real threat.

Cameron did have to hold a referendum. To not do so would have fuelled the migration of UKIP to the mainstream. By the prior election, they were the 3rd biggest party in votes (more than LD and SNP combined). Only the FPTP system was stopping them getting MPs - and that would eventually fall until there was no majority government in any election.

What Cameron did fuck up was assuming (like mostly everyone except ardent leavers) that leave would win. He campaigned remain, but not well enough; he didn't think to put in a provision to say constitutional reform of this size needs a 50% of the country, not just of the turnout.

However, even if he had put in such a provision - a win by the remain side would not have made Farage et al disappear in a puff of smoke. They'd have used the result to market themselves as victims of the establishment and continued to draw support from the disaffected until they had a chance at another mechanism to trigger Article 50.

LaurieMarlow · 14/12/2018 09:39

I too would like to see him taken to the tower for treason.

His arrogance and ineptitude have cost the country so much

Justanotherlurker · 14/12/2018 09:41

Exactly Adam

As for this UKIP were not and were never going to be a real threat. was a common thought until they came 3rd in the election, that's when both parties suddenly realised they were an actual threat.

GrabEmByThePatriarchy · 14/12/2018 10:21

The Tories got 36.9% of the vote in 2015, so even if everyone who voted for them wanted one, which they didn't, it's not like Cameron secured an overwhelming mandate to hold a referendum. Even if you add UKIPs 12.6%, that's under half of votes cast and about a third of the actual electorate. If the people were clamouring for a referendum, they had an odd way of showing it.

Justanotherlurker · 14/12/2018 10:30

The Tories got 36.9% of the vote in 2015, so even if everyone who voted for them wanted one, which they didn't, it's not like Cameron secured an overwhelming mandate to hold a referendum.

This tired they only got x is a straw man, that is FPTP and no one has had an outright majority for decades.

The referendum itself had a ~70% turnout which is on par with the previous high watermark of 1992.

GrabEmByThePatriarchy · 14/12/2018 10:38

Actually, the strawman is the referendum turnout. Millions of the people voting in it didn't want it to happen in the first place. You can reasonably assume that the 17 million Leavers did, but no more than that.

Also, while no party has had a majority of votes cast in decades, plenty of them have secured more than 36.9% of the votes.

Confusedbeetle · 14/12/2018 10:40

Cameron went to the EU to try and get some improvement. The EU tipped him out without a bean, If there had been any concessions at all those who voted to get away from the bullies would not have done so. And in fact, there probably wouldn't have been the referendum. The bullying tactics continue surprise surprise. The EU is not static. A remain vote did not vote for the same stability, but for an ever-increasing bureaucracy which may eventually collapse. TM has had a go and the EU is not prepared to give an inch. They want the money and dont want us to crash out but are blackmailing us with the Backstop

lonelyplanetmum · 14/12/2018 10:44

Yes Hameron must take lots of blame, opening the lid on this whole chain of events, then resigning. Skipping off perkily and humming as he did so is pretty unforgivable.

But other politicians have responsibility too. TM for triggering Article 50 before thrashing out a detailed UK agreed plan in Westminster.

Also remember these quotes (with credits to the Brexit Westminsterenders thread):

There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside.
• <a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.ft.com/content/45137d44-8f0a-11e6-a72e-b428cb934b78" target="_blank">David Davis (10 October 2016)

The day after we vote to leave we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want.
â—¦ <a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/michael-gove/michael-gove-vote-leave_b_9728548.html" target="_blank">Michael Gove (9 April 2016)

There will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market.
â—¦ <a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/i-cannot-stress-too-much-that-britain-is-part-of-europe--and-alw/" target="_blank">Boris Johnson (26 June 2016)

Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy – the UK holds most of the cards in any negotiation.
â—¦ <a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=johnredwoodsdiary.com/2016/07/17/getting-out-of-the-eu-can-be-quick-and-easy-the-uk-holds-most-of-the-cards-in-any-negotiation/" target="_blank">John Redwood (17 July 2016)

The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history.
â—¦ <a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/20/liam-fox-uk-eu-trade-deal-after-brexit-easiest-human-history" target="_blank">Liam Fox (20 July 2017)

LaurieMarlow · 14/12/2018 10:47

Cameron went to the EU to try and get some improvement. The EU tipped him out without a bean, If there had been any concessions at all those who voted to get away from the bullies would not have done so

Firstly they did give concessions

Secondly the U.K. already had the best deal of all the EU member states. There were limits to what could be given without absolutely taking the piss.

If the brexiteers had the actual facts rather than the nonsense that their heads are full of we wouldn't be in this mess.

lucydo · 14/12/2018 10:51

You can reasonably assume that the 17 million Leavers did, but no more than that.
How can you assume that? So many assumptions are made about voters' thoughts. With no grounding in fact.
Remainers had a chance to vote in the last GE for the only party that was anti Brexit - the Lib Dems. If so many people have changed their minds, why did they tank?

RoboticMary · 14/12/2018 10:52

My head isn’t full of nonsense.

If you stopped insulting people for just one minute and had a civilised discussion, we might get somewhere. But this is where politics has gone wrong. Attacking people personally rather than talking about ideas.

GrabEmByThePatriarchy · 14/12/2018 10:53

Cameron did get concessions from the EU. That's a matter of simple fact. And the referendum went ahead regardless.

GrabEmByThePatriarchy · 14/12/2018 10:58

If you don't want to assume Leavers wanted the ability to vote us out of the EU lucy then fair enough, but in that case its even less legitimate for anyone to cite high turnout, almost half of which was Remain, as evidence that the referendum was actually wanted by those voting.

As for why more people didn't vote Lib Dem in 2017, we don't know, but we do know that Labour did well amongst Remainers. The polling showed that. One doesn't have to think that logical to be aware that it happened. And this is a big part of the reason Labour are prevaricating of course. Trying to play both sides.

Justanotherlurker · 14/12/2018 11:05

Actually, the strawman is the referendum turnout.

No trying to bring in voting percentages as some kind of gotcha that ignores the historic calls for an EU ref and the political climate at the time with the rise of UKIP, also the fact both Labour and Cons ran there last election promising to abide by the result shows that it is a strawman.

Also, while no party has had a majority of votes cast in decades, plenty of them have secured more than 36.9% of the votes.

Did not dispute otherwise, this is not a conversation about FPTP.

Satsumaeater · 14/12/2018 11:09

Cameron was either very badly advised or arrogant enough to ignore advice or both.