A United Ireland

[poppiesallykatie]

Not a goady thread or to stir, but how many are against it or for it? Obviously many in NI want to part of the Republic, many in NI want to part of Great Britain, how do the British people feel about it?

I wouldn’t personally go near anything that the Wright’s were involved in. I know it was alleged years ago that they paid fines off for some of the boyz. But whether that’s true or not I don’t know it could have been just gossip.

Tbh, it would probably be easy to integrate Fermanagh, Tyrone and Armagh into the Republic, even Derry. Antrim and Down are the issues and we would need a Berlin airlift into parts of Belfast.

I grew up with the fuzzy armchair nationalism that I'd say most people my age did in ROI. I'm sure some other posters know what I mean - "Brits out", "it's our country", the odd rebel song at a wedding sort of thing. But we voted to give up our claim on NI for the GFA. That vote forced people to think about what really mattered and in making that decision people here in ROI had to let go of the idea of 'A Nation Once Again' and move on.

Twenty years have passed, we have moved on. Pre the 2016 UK vote there was very little thought of a United Ireland here and let's be honest NI wasn't particularly pushed either because slowly but surely NI was coming into its own.

So I'm not sure why some posters here are so surprised or hurt that ROI, having voted 20 years ago to give up the constitutional claim (and then got on with our lives as did the people of NI) might not rush to vote for a united Ireland simply because Britain has created this mess!

If we've learned anything at all from Brexit surely it's that making very big decisions based only on "the feelz" and ignoring or denying the likely social, economic and political impact of that decision is a really, really bad idea?

There seems to be this sense that Ireland somehow has a moral duty to take the economic hit (along with the hit from any kind of Brexit because even the one on the table hurts us) as well as the political and social impact that would go with a UI. Why? We have obligations under the GFA and we should absolutely live up to those but why this idea that we should all be prepared to take potentially a couple of decades of hardship for us and our children because of some vague sense of kinship with the people of NI? I know we have a reputation for being generous but why on earth are the people of Ireland expected to be so much more selfless than, oooh, I dunno.... the English, Scottish or Welsh? Why should we be so much more willing to endure economic hardship, to change our educational/political/healthcare systems, to take on the risks that go along with having a significant minority of a population feeling unrepresented and disenfranchised?

I need something more than "because it'd be the nice thing to do"!

Can I ask why the ROI was not a bit more vocal about not wanting a united Ireland at the time of the troubles?

Fucking hell BarbarianMum, that is the most offensively thick view I've seen on mn. Do you know what the (very destructive) IRA represented? Pipe down or educate yourself and stop embarrassing your nationality whatever it is (but I hope it's not The same as mine)

It's the Troubles and the violence that shifted the change from wanting a unified Ireland. For my family at least.

My parents lived on the border for some of the troubles and didn't enjoy the experience. My mother crossing the border from Donegal into Derry for work daily,my father occasionally ..it was a hard border at the time and their descriptions and stories just blew the mind. They decided to sell up and move further south so that their kids could grow up away from a warzone. Their lives were never directly impacted by violence bar the odd pot shot at the crossings but the cultural undertones of them and us and threat of violence was something they couldnt live with.Especially given they had grown up in the west and grew up on very good terms with the protestant neighbours! We still have family in the north but they never went back until 2000 and begging my brother not to go to uni in Belfast because they were worried it was still unstable. He went anyway for the record and enjoyed his time in Queens.

The IRA killed ,the unionists killed, the british government killed...innocents and involved all died... and there were atrocities commited on all sides. Whatever appetite the Roi people may have had for reunification died with that violence in my eyes. No moderate person condoned the terrorism on either side. But the factions and history is deeply entrenched in the North.

Most normal people in the ROI do not see themselves aligned with the IRA or want to be associated with them. Sinn fein is not a popular party. The moderate banality of fine gael and fiamna fail is the popular choice. There is a genuine and not unreasonable fear that the unionists will restart the conflict if it becomes a unified Ireland.
Then we are all dragged back into it....except this time it wont be confined ti the north, its the ROI that will be bombed as well as the UK.

Why would the ROI want to take on the potential violence that unification brings?
We are stable and neutral.
All thats without even getting into the ecominics of it. The roi has just come through massive ecomonic recession and is looking at being destabilised again thanks to Brexit....who in their right minds would vote for political and potenitially violent instability to be added on as well?

The gfa has helped stabilise the north but theres a lot more to be done before the region should be considered for a reunion or even for independence. The north needs to be stabile and capable of running a governing body that represents all the people who live there as a basic rule.The region integrated and capable of living peacefully before the likes of reunifcation can happen. Thats not going to happen quickly. I'd be amazed if it happens in my lifetime.

"@CantSleepClownsWillEatMe So I'm not sure why some posters here are so surprised or hurt that ROI, having voted 20 years ago to give up the constitutional claim (and then got on with our lives as did the people of NI)"

Borders in NI between voting regions are drawn like those we see in Africa/US states; straight-line, pre-determined and drawn in favour; still the shaking of the rattle can't move them. Gerrymandering is still in place. A vote is still not possible due to the fine lines between population density and straight lines. The North will never be independent. So either Britain really puts the work and funding in or it is re-unified.

The answer to the Brexit backstop problem is very easy, have a border poll in Ireland, the majority in the six counties want to remain in the EU, the majority of people in Ireland want a United Ireland, Brexit out of Ireland first and Brexit from the EU is so much simpler.

I couldn’t give a shit.

What I am fed up with is NI seemingly holding all the cards in the Brexit negotiations (yes I get why) while Scotland, who voted substantially to remain, are told “tough shit”.

And as a previous poster mentioned, @Tamberlane, the Irish are not technically neutral. To be neutral you have to have a viable army, airforce, sea force, none of which Ireland has and thus make a conscious decision to be neutral. We are a vassal state within that definition, but as in any area of life, who we choose to be a vassal of is still our own choice and I am guessing it won't be GB anytime soon.

Where are you getting that definition of neutrality from, OP?

That's not my definition of neutral poppie where is it stated that for a country to be neutral they must have viable military. Surely that contradicts neutrality?

So I'm not sure why some posters here are so surprised or hurt that ROI, having voted 20 years ago to give up the constitutional claim (and then got on with our lives as did the people of NI) might not rush to vote for a united Ireland

This

The answer to the Brexit backstop problem is very easy, have a border poll in Ireland

This is as stupid as it comes.

If anyone thinks reunification of Ireland is the 'easy' solution to the brexit problem they havent been paying attention for the last 60 years.

"The ROI voted 20 years ago and gave up their constitutional claim"
I was 16 at the time but what exactly did the ROI vote for in 1996?

NI is not holding any cards. No one gives a shit what the people here think. We are being used as a bargaining chip.

This United Ireland nonsense is just that, there wouldn’t be majority support for it in either NI or ROI and quite rightly so. We’ve enough problems in NI without that on top.

1998 is 20 years ago. Changes to Articles 2 and 3 of the constitution.

'OKPedro' and 'LadyGregorys'. If a country does not have a viable military force, conscription etc. then neutrality is a forced position to take. Look at Switzerland, probably one of the best known neutralities in the world, conscription, large army, 150+ war aircraft with a defined strategy in terms of a threat. Ireland has 1 warplane (maybe 2 ), no conscription, nobody interested. So we are a forced neutral country. We are only 5.5 million people overall, but we still have a right as any other country in the world has to say no or yes and therein is a walk along a tightrope. Just because a country doesn't have 60 warplanes lined up on to take out who they are pissed off with, doesn't mean they have a less powerful position.

A united Ireland is inevitable, demographics are pushing it that way in the six counties, (which were originally carved out of Ulster's nine counties to get a protestant unionist majority in the statelet after partition) Ireland is Britain's oldest colony, and has always been a thorn in her side, and still is to this day.
It's not a question of 'if' but 'when' Ireland is reunited, it just simply makes sense.

The North will never be independent. So either Britain really puts the work and funding in or it is re-unified

See, you say that like it's a fact - either Britain sorts it or ROI takes it on but that's not the case! It still doesn't answer my question as to why ROI is expected (by some pps) to just accept unification and all that goes with that.

To whom snowfire? Possibly to quite a lot of British people who currently view NI/ROI as "a thorn in their side" as you put it (too fucking bad) but you must be aware that it's not just NI who get to vote on that?

mummyshark To be fair in relation to your comment that the people of NI have no say in who is the prime minster of the UK, that isn't strictly true at present 😉

TBH, I can understand not wanting the hassle of taking on NI, and the fear of loyalist violence if it were to happen. I can also understand not wanting to subsidise a people that have got too used to being on state benefits.

It makes me despair though. I’m from NI, though often just say Ireland when asked where I’m from as the island is my country and I’m partly embarrassed to be from NI. I had a fantastic convent grammar school education, my brothers the same at the CB, and now we have all emigrated as there were no prospects.

I look at Cork and Galway, and it makes me so sad as Derry could be like that, but is held back by this stupid partition and identity crisis. The GFA was helping as the boundaries were melting, but Brexit puts everything back to square one.

It’s pretty shit. I really pray the withdrawal agreement goes through as the backstop may actually give NI a future.

I’m Irish and would vote no if a referendum was called. This despite the fact that my grandparents fought in the 1916 rising for a free Ireland.

What makes me say no is the perception of a NI who is not progressive enough to join an Ireland which is steadily divesting itself of it’s old catholic influence. I’m 50 and so far I’ve seen contraception freely become available, introduction of divorce, same sex marriage and now the abortion egiskation is sitting waiting to be signed by Micheal D. I have no interest in having NI join the republic as I believe the cultural divide is simply too diverse now.

Sinn Fein are dreamers in my opinion - this applies to both their talk of a United Ireland and their financial policies. Neither are realistic and neither seem to be supported by a large volume of voters. When Sinn Fein mentioned in the Dail last week that the time for a referendum had come The Taoiseach was quick to shoot that suggestion down. He was right. We are many years away from that - if ever.

I feel that if NI were to join The Republic of Ireland I would want them to join my country as it is. And accept its lifestyle and values and customs. And I completely appreciate how unacceptable this would be to a country that has its own culture and identity. Which is why I don’t want it. I wouldn’t expect to drop my culture to join a neighboring country in a merger so why should I expect NI to do the same.

But the majority of NI want abortion, and we already have contraception, divorce etc...

Have you ever been to NI, Ink? The vast majority of people have the same attitudes. There are a small percentage of DUP diehards - who at the moment have managed to hold the whole UK to ransom - but their views are not representative of the majority.

The big difference in ROI is that from around 1990, with Italia 90, it is at ease with itself and comfortable with an Irishness which is not anti-British.

NI has been held back by partition, but the fact that most nationalists were happy with the GFA is also because they could live with the status quo as long as both cultures were equally respected. Brexit threatens all this. But the reason NI may well vote for reunification is because people want the new culture of ROI and its greater tolerance. It’s much more attractive than the old De Valera church state.