To think free family/ grandparent childcare should be banned?

[KnightlyMyMan]

This is a topic I keep seeing pop up and I can see both sides so wanted to throw it up for discussion.

Reasons I agree;

• It’s a HUGE and unfair financial advantage for those of us who have unpaid/ free childcare over those who don’t! It’s basically luck of the draw over whether you get to avoid £700-£900 full time nursery fees per child! In every other area of life it seems society is making it less acceptable to discriminate due to family financial status (uni funding - blind interviews) but ‘unpaid internships’ and ‘free childcare’ are two big remaining issues!
  

• It takes away jobs and is detrimental to the economy. (If all the children currently being looked after by family were in nursery more money would be spent, contributing to the economy, and more staff would be needed, creating jobs.)
  

But equally, as someone who does have free grandparent childcare lined up - of course I want to save (huge amounts) of cash and I trust my parents implicitly, no one would care for my kids better! Why should I give my children to strangers (even professionally trained ones) or fork out money I don’t need to?

The topic of childcare came up at work the other day and there was a definite ‘bloody alright for some’ attitude from those colleagues paying for childcare. It seems to be a subject that divides people very strongly!

[haloumi]

This is the strangest thing I've ever read on MN and that's saying something! .... There is simply NO REASON and NO MECHANISM for implementing such a strange concept ...

There will always be people who look at others and want what they have, there will always be people who are happy with their lot. You know who are lifes winners?

we should be fighting for LESS rules , not more!

[ChocolateStash]

Whatever works for families and helps people manage. There is 'no one size fits all' solution.

[Oceanbliss]

Massive thread so forgive me for not having RTFT. Has anyone suggested to the Op, making all childcare free instead of banning families from helping each other out? Government funded childcare where qualified staff are paid, parents can volunteer on days they can to help out, working bees, fundraising, non-profit. Op your reasoning is flawed and punitive. Why should supportive families be controlled, dictated to, punished for supporting one another without expecting financial remuneration. And how on earth could that even remotely be considered fair? It's so unfair we're not allowed to support one another or help each other out because some people don't have family support. It's so unfair my elderly parent is not allowed to stay in the family home because some people don't have adult children who are able to or willing to take care of them and have to live in an aged care facility. What about all the the potential aged care nurses not getting paid to look after your elderly parent? Ridiculous. I would like to think that extended family who provide "free" childcare get supported in return, in other ways, when they need it.

[Oceanbliss]

Fwiw I am so sick of this over eagerness to ban this or ban that, ban it, ban it, ban it. Aibu to want to ban banning things

[bellinisurge]

Who is going to police this ban? Wouldn't money be better spent on actual problems?

[Grammar]

I agree, life is unfair. I guess we are ' lucky ' if we have parents or PIL/ family to help us.
But what is luck?
Some may say it's not having a child with special needs ( far end of spectrum non verbal, in a whhelchair as a friend if mine has)), some may say it's luck if you don't have a child with multiple allergies, where one is always 'on call. Some would it's lucky not to have a child going through chemotherapy for cancer, would we ban family help, if available to these too? ( I realise I'm taking this issue to its end point)
Some would say, it's lucky to be able to afford childcare. What is luck?

I myself had no help at all, with a DH working away...I did hosp admissions, a normal anxiety with 3 ( 2 years between) but that was our decision. I kept my profession going but had to make compromises).
They've done well, all non privately educated , a fairly phleghmatic approach but never did I think my friends who had help , that that should have that banned.

I also realise the thread has evolved, so sorry if this been said before. But life is life...some people will always get a better deal. ( or a worse deal).

[Jaxhog]

While I like the idea of making childcare free, how on earth would we fund this? Are you willing to pay a load more tax to fund this? Should we give it to every parent regardless of whether they have 1 or 12 children? Should it be means tested (requiring an army of civil servants to administer)?

Whatever happened to parental responsibility?

[Babyroobs]

Nothing is fair though is it ? I feel bitter that I have spent most of my kids childhoods working nights ( often after looking after young children all day ) and weekends just to keep a career going because we couldn't afford childcare and had little family help, wheras now people can get 30 hours free childcare and much better childcare help. If I could have had that for my kids there would have been no need to work opposite my husband for years on end thus putting a strain on my mental health and our marriage and missing out so much on family time. I met up with my cousins yesterday, one has a nine month old baby and has gone back to work 4 days a week - she has free childcare from her 75 year old mum. I personally think this is way too much for a 75 year old to be coping with but I guess its up to them.

[Babyroobs]

Sorry my post should read "I could feel bitter". I don't it's just the way things are.

[5fivestar]

Oceanbliss - government funded would mean more government intervention - would you be on with people phoning to find out why you’ve not attended child care, 90% attendance being expected. Holidays in holiday time ie basically school starting at 3 months .... food for thought. No such thing as a free lunch though

[3Blues]

This reeks of communist ideology and would not be the arguments I would throw forward against free family childcare....

[KindergartenKop]

Universal free childcare would be a better option.

[Oceanbliss]

Jaxhog and 5fivestar, I was writing tongue in cheek. As in I was making a ridiculous suggestion in response to a ridiculous Op. Sorry, didn't realize the conversation/thread was serious

[Oceanbliss]

Fwiw I have worked in community based childcare which has lower fees, non-profit, run by the director and the parent committee, parents either volunteer some of their time, skills to the childcare centre or opt out by paying a yearly fee and we all participated in occasional fundraising events, held the occasional working bee and there was soft drink and wine provided. We had a very long waiting list because of our popularity. A fantastic centre to work in. Only wish I hadn't had to move so far away (would need a plane to get there). When I started in the industry in the late 90's in Australia childcare and kindergarten was not privatized, profit run businesses. They were either council run or community based. There was government funding just as there is for public schools. Childcare or kindergarten was never compulsory and I didn't notice government interfering in how they were run. There were fees (I would never expect there not to be) but much lower than today because not run for making some business owner a profit, also pay has risen as it should. It was about providing quality childcare. Some profit run centres are fine, some are terrible. I know from what I've seen with my own eyes. Do you know what it's like to work for a business oriented owner who knows nothing of child development or what children, families and the teacher and carers actually need? A business owner who only cares about turning a profit. It's fucking awful and I refuse to do it. Won't even send my own dc to one.

[5fivestar]

All the not for profit childcare services I interviewed with in Western Australia bonused the directors on profit. How the fuck does that work exactly

[5fivestar]

By directors I mean managers

[Oceanbliss]

5fivestar I have no idea what you are specifically talking about. A non profit community based childcare centre is often not owned by a person who makes a profit off it. For example the community based childcare centre I worked in was established by a person many years ago who had been deceased for however many years. I'm not sure on how it really works in terms of legalities. I do know that all money made from the childcare fees and fundraising were all used for the running of the centre, maintaining the building and outdoor areas, staff wages etc. A non profit organization makes money, pays bills and pays staff. It might have been bought and then established as a non profit organization by a wealthy benefactor who is still alive and involved in running it. But as long as that person isn't making money off it then they are running a non profit organization. An organization that is run for profit makes money, pays staff and after all the running costs are accounted for the rest of the money made (that would be the profit) goes to the owner/s of the organization/business. Whatever fees and charges they have for whatever service they provide is calculated to cover costs and make a profit. Private organizations including private childcare centres often find ways to cut costs to increase profit (hiring the bare minimum of staff, ignoring minor maintenance issues etc). Perhaps in your situation staff were given a bonus if the centre's budget (after all running costs accounted for) was in surplus. People who work in childcare often work very hard for a low wage and I wouldn't begrudge them a bonus especially at the end of the year. Even if they worked in a community based non profit childcare. Our team was not paid for attending fundraising or working bees. We did this outside of our working hours for free. Basically we volunteered our free time because we cared about our centre. I know a lot of teachers and childcare workers who give of their free time for the benefit of the children, who take work home with them, who go above and beyond for the children and families that they care about. They give their free time and are not paid for it. So many times when I had finished my shift and a parent wanted to talk to me about their child. I gave them my time and was never paid overtime. None of us are paid overtime for staying back. If the parent committee decided to reward us with a bonus at the end of the year because we had less expenditure and our budget was in surplus, would you suddenly accuse us of not being a non profit organization?

[5fivestar]

The two big main players in WA who are registered charities and not for profit child care providers were both offering bonuses to me on top of my salary for cutting corners basically, ensuring the profitability of the services, that seemed totally contradictory to me

[Oceanbliss]

I've also worked in private childcare centres (run for profit) and overtime is not paid to staff there either. Teachers and childcare workers are expected to stay back if they are needed without overtime being paid. You might get time in lieu. But often TIL accrues and the centre just can't spare you and allow you to take it. It's why burn out is pretty common in the industry.

[5fivestar]

I would agree with that statement too, I will never work in the sector again other than self employment it’s ridiculous

[Chardeemacdennis1]

Child care should be pro rata based on your salary.

So high earners pay more, low earners pay less.

That way you won't have the issue of some people working for nothing. I would have been working for £20 per day if I had returned to work. Minus petrol, parking and clothes I would have basically been working for nothing.

People who have relatives that can help are lucky, why begrudge them, but that also has its own set of issues. A lot of kids cared for by GPS end up spoilt and naughty in my experience.

[Oceanbliss]

5fivestar your experience differs from mine. I don't know what organization you worked for but none of the community based childcare centres I worked for were run by charities, rather they were run by the community they were in (such as local families who use the centre who choose to be in the parent committee). This is my understanding of a community based childcare centre. It is run by a parent committee who are involved in hiring all staff including the director. I can't envision parents wanting to cut corners when their children are are attending the centre. I have never come across a childcare centre run by a charity. I'm not in W.A. though. I'm not going to identify what part of Australia I'm in. Any childcare centre that wanted me to cut corners I would leave.

[LowbrowVictoriana]

A lot of kids cared for by GPS end up spoilt and naughty in my experience

How silly. Lots of kids end up spoilt and naughty, whoever has looked after them.

[Ifangyow]

I can assure you that I don't spoil my grandkids, if anything I've been accused of being too strict with them.
They get told no more than they get told yes and get bollockings and hugs in equal measures.
Just the same as my kids did really.

[Tigger001]

This is such a weird thread, while I have heard people saying they wish they had free childcare, I have never heard anyone who genuinely believes it needs to be "evened" out in some way.

I had always planned to have my mum around to do any extra childcare, I have chosen to halt my career and be at home with him until he starts school, but mum would always to do the school holidays when I went back. I lost my mum in match which completely turned everything upside down. So I am now one of the people who has no one for additional childcare as PIL too far away. I would never expect my friends to now be penalised for having that privilege.

My godchild has sever autism and can not be looked after additionally by anyone. The only person who on occasions he will stay with is his grandmother, it would be horrendous to penalise his parents for that.

I do understand what you mean about how everyone seems to even playing field for everyone but I just think it's silly to actually think it genuinely should be evened out somehow