About mother spoiling toddler classes

[backrolls]

More of a wwyd but I'm completely prepared to be told IABU! Sorry for the essay:

I live in quite a quiet area where lots of toddler groups and classes are run by volunteers throughout the week, and they are really lovely. There's a real mix too such as craft, music and even cooking and they are a great place for lonely mums to meet other people and get out of the house.

My young DS particularly likes a baby gym class that runs early on a Monday, which has circle time, songs, free play and a snack. The groups are really friendly and not cliquey in the slightest, so you are guaranteed a friendly welcome if you are having one of those days - everyone's stance is they have all been there!

Anyhow, there's a Mum who comes along to this group who is, quite frankly, awful to her DC who is no older than 2. She starts off ok but when the child doesn't want to join in, she shouts at them and saying they are 'naughty' and 'so irritating'. She usually spends the classes shouting at the DC, or playing on her phone during the free play which is supposed to be supervised by parents. She isn't physical, but very vocal. I've given her the benefit of the doubt and tried to show some kindness, bringing her a cup of tea and offering to help her DC navigate the play gym, and the staff have always been considerate. It's gotten to the point where the classes are so toxic in her presence people have stopped going along. When challenged she is awful, I guess people are a bit scared of her but have tried to intervene for her DC's sake and some have also tried to befriend the Mum.

Thing is, this Mum goes to every class going. She's recently signed up to a paid mini art and drama class my close friend runs and every week this mother is creating chaos where her DC just doesn't want to join in and is being physically forced to. My friend is very shy, and buying this franchise was a huge deal for her but this Mum is scaring off all her customers. It's block booking and this Mum has paid for the whole term up front, so is just as entitled to be there. My friend tried to gently suggest that if her child wasn't enjoying the classes she would be happy to give a refund, but the response was so aggressive it made her very anxious.

Am IBU where I think it's not fair that this Mum gets to ruin classes for other children and their parents? The free ones may be the only way she can get out of the house and I get it that she has every right to be there. Surely the same can't be said for paid classes though. WWYD and any advice for my friend?

*needs help.

Everyone is worrying about the poor mother being judged for being an abusive bitch. Why? Surely the welfare of the child is the issue here.

I don't think OP sounds cliquey, it's not like she doesn't like this lady because she's not rich/cool/fashionable/educated enough. She doesn't like her because she's unkind to her DC and ruins the class for everyone. I wouldn't like it in OP's position either. Not sure what the solution is. Maybe your friend could write a behaviour code or have an official policy that kids aren't forced to join in.

One of the best classes I went to with my toddler they said it's completely normal if they don't really join in at first. Let them play and come to it if it interests them. That class had the most engaged kids. It's really not developmentally appropriate to force a toddler to sit down and do an activity.

I do agree the welfare of the little one is most important and I can’t imagine shouting at mine like that :( it must be exhausting for everyone.

I do agree that toddler classes in principle are a bit silly - can you just start going to soft play or something instead? There are still mums there but expecting a child so young to be either interested in organised activities for long periods or to be interested in interacting with other children at that age is just unrealistic. The things I like to do is parks, soft play and swimming. Any art, nursery rhymes, cooking etc are done at home.

I can't imagine not going to a toddler group because I found one of the other mums annoying! It's not exactly tolerant is it?

There are a lot of comments defending this mum. There is no excuse to snap at your 2 year old and call them 'naughty' and 'irritating'. It's also disgusting she 'screamed' at her child and called her 'stupid' over the sake of some spilt paint water.

I've had my bad days, I've been nervous in baby groups, I think everyone has. No way would I ever even consider talking to my daughter like that.

I have to say, its easy to judge, when you have no idea what is going on. Not everyone is perfect, and while I admit telling a child they are naughty or irritating is not nice, but you do not know what the mother is going through or what the child might have done.

One time, I bought my children front row tickets to see a circus. My daughter wanted candy floss, but my husband is strict and refused so I told my dd not this time. She started going off how I ruined her day, I am the worst mom and having a tantrum. I lose my temper and tell her to stop it and she is irritating me etc. But my dd goes on and starts crying. I get up and move seats with my husband as I have had enough of the tantrum and what my dd is saying. Then some rude later on her high horse decides to chime in and tell me what an awful mother I am because she heard me say my dd is irritating me. It made me feel awful and ruined what was supposed to be a nice family event. All because my dd wanted candy floss and we said no. Obviously, I said no in a nice way, but when my dd threw a tantrum and started saying I was the worst mom and would not let it go, I lost my temper. But the bitch lady had the nerve to say something to me to which she knows nothing about.

Anyway, long story short....some kids are very difficult or might say something you do not hear or know why a parent reacts the way they do. Two years old is quite young I understand, but the mother obviously loves her child and makes an effort, as she takes the child to all the classes.

It's stressful and unpleasant being around someone who seems that angry. She is probably parenting the way she was parented, so it seems normal to her. Having a child may be pushing some buttons for her. She may also be unaware she is angry, and as anger and being snappy is a symptom of depression it's highly likely she is wrestling with PND as well. She sounds like she is behaving like an absolute arse, however you have to be the bigger person here and think of what is best for her and her child which is to be loved, included and REALLY WELCOMED not faux welcomed because you made her a cup of tea once or did that pity-parenting thing where other people pointedly parent your child 'better' than you so they can 'show you how it's done', which is patronising and would enrage anyone.

Far more helpful would be to just be there, and try and find things you actually like about her or her child. People can tell when you are faking it. Maybe she didn't take you up on your offer of a coffee because she knew you didn't want to spend time with her and were doing it out of duty.

I appreciate you're going to have to dig deep here but the rewards if you succeed are so great you really have to try. Please don't exclude them.

My mum was quite like this. I was the child. It's only because other people bothered that my childhood was as bearable as it was. Thank god they did.

I think your friend who's running the group needs to manage this - it's not going to be easy if she's shy and the mum's quite domineering, but it's something she has to step up to. She needs to ask her politely to not shout/be intimidating in the group, and if that doesn't work, tell her that she'll be getting a refund but she can't attend in the future.

You said the last time your friend tried to speak to her, the woman was aggressive - this is all the explanation your friend needs to give. "Susan, your behaviour isn't appropriate here. I'm sorry, but you can't attend any future sessions."

Oh and I also meant to say, it might be that she suspects her child has some special needs and is in denial about this, hence pushing them to 'do the things' as a way of being all "see, everything is fine!' that's why she's so invested in her joining in and so snappy when she doesn't. Just a possibility.

Some parents are just downright horrible to their children and will never accept that there might be different ways to deal with their child or accept offers of friendship and solidarity. I say this through professional eyes as a social worker.

This woman sounds exactly like someone i worked with many years ago (her child will be a teenager now). She had had a terrible upbringing and trusted no-one. She had no idea how to parent her child as she had never had a good role model and was angry with everyone all the time. It is so hard to deal with people like this as they cannot ever accept they are wrong or that someone might be trying to be helpful rather than judgemental.

I have nothing to offer in terms of what you or your friend should do. All can suggest is that you continue to be consistent and friendly towards her and maybe she will start to trust you. It does sound hard though.

OP I think you are having a hard time on this post! Sounds like you've tried to engage this mum despite her attitude to her child being a concern.

My mum was difficult. Because we were part of her package. we were as excluded and rejected as she was. People don't expect little children to pick up on it and feel it.
Def be as nice as you can to the child, as they are not their mum.

I agree with spacedinosaur that this one is on the shoulders of the group leaders, even if they are volunteers. The woman sounds dreadfully unhappy and has probably been advised to get out and socialise, but from your account she's not good at taking the hand of friendship you've offered. I would offer to speak to one of the volunteers and help them think of ways to support her using SpaceDinosaur's excellent suggestions. There may be nothing much to do though, just focus on the positives in the room.

It's times like this I really dislike mumsnet.

My advice for your friend is to follow her safeguarding procedure, because this mother is emotionally abusing her child, possibly physically abusing depending on what you mean by being physically forced to join in, and it sounds as if the family needs some help. If you have concerns about a family attending your sessions you refer them on to the appropriate children's services team.

I cannot be doing with a flurry of responses telling me this is the wrong thing to do and focussing more on the chance to give the op a bashing for not being nicer to this woman than on the suffering of the child, so I will hide this thread following this post.

If my dh had refused to let dc have candyfloss at the circus, I'd have let him deal with the fall out

Again fair points and good suggestions. I've wondered if it could be because she's overwhelmed/ not coping. It's easy for me to make her the odd cup of tea and then get on with my day after the group.

I've considered making an anonymous MASH call or talking with the ladies who run the sessions, they are volunteers but must have done skills/safeguarding training before as it's under the children's centre but unpaid if that makes sense. I remember reading about being 'the final piece of the the jigsaw' so this may be the case.

I'm seeing my friend tomorrow so will pass on the advice, she has regular calls with the head of franchise so hopefully they can help her too.

The woman does have a friendship group who I've seen together in cafes but I don't know much about them, their babies seemed a lot younger so could be that she's struggling with a toddler and her friends are more at the young baby stage.

There's been some really good and supportive comments so thanks for contributing, it's been really helpful

The mum is a good mum by the way if she is getting out of the house

Well that's clearly bollocks. Shite parents do leave the house you know!

I can't believe so many PPs are piling onto OP - maybe if someone concerned had intervened earlier with Baby P or Victoria Climbie instead of thinking 'oh I'm sure the parents are just stressed and doing their best' there would have been a different outcome. If this mother is behaving like this in full view of other people, God knows what she's like at home. I would definitely be asking the HV to come along and watch a class, or calling the NSPCC for advice. If the mother is struggling, a referral could get her the help she needs. If she's abusive then the child will be helped. It's a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.

I can't imagine not going to a toddler group because I found one of the other mums annoying! It's not exactly tolerant is it?

She doesn't find her annoying, she's finds her aggressive, intimidating and unkind (to a young child). Most people wouldn't like to be around someone like that.

If these groups are in a childrens centre then there should be family support workers there and they won’t be entirely staffed by volunteers. I certainly wouldn’t want to discourage her from going as it sounds like her and her child could desperately do with the support.

Havelock

I was going to comment about that - it’s a pretty low bar if going out = good parent!

If you see someone shouting and pulling at their child once, they might just be having a terrible day.

If you see them 7 or 8 times or more and every single time they are shouting and tugging at them exactly the same then this is how they parent all the time and who knows that their home style where no-one can see isn't even worse.

Does the fact that this mother is showing at her child perturb the other children? Witnessing aggressive behaviour can be intimidating to both children and adults and result in anxiety or tenseness.
Your friend is quite entitled to return a fee and to state that for whatever reason she do not wish this woman to continue to attend provide it’s not based on race, sexuality etc. There may, of course, be adverse publicity if this woman goes to the news media but this is unlikely to be a problem if your friend handles the matter with discretion. In fact your friend may be doing this child a favour by protecting her from been coerced into unwanted activities

All these Negative comments from posters at the same time saying why don't you help her... very hypocritical. The op has asked for help and has been criticised but except to keep offering some mean mother support.

Your friend needs to go through the franchise packs and find out how to formal deal with this.

first two times I took ds then dp went, and he loved it, Just done what I did played with ds, but the first thing he said was why were there so many telling there dc they are naughty. 6-10 month old babies constantly being told 'your naughty or shouting no'. It does make me a little uncomfortable but again I just play with my son so don't let it bother me for long.

That's what these places are like, you have either perfect parents ( who's dc sleep through the night etc) or ones who just want to socialise and not play with there dc.

Maybe she's having a shit time and trying to get out of the house and by doing that, she is taking her toddler to places where she or he will be able to enjoy it? I think there is more going on with her life. Maybe she is depressed or having other issues. I would at least try and befriend her? Maybe she just needs someone to confide into.

I feel very sorry for her child if she speaks to he/she like that in front of people... I wonder what she would say behind closed doors!

I grew up with parents that would speak to me like this on a daily basis and it’s had a hugely negative impact on my self confidence and self esteem.

I think you’re getting a hard time here, OP. I don’t have any suggestions but we can’t always excuse such behaviour with ‘she’s struggling’
Many of us struggle and don’t behave that way...