Ian Huntley ! This is wrong...

[HJWT]

I just don't have words

Except we do. It's why we have single sex spaces.

I think that's a simplistic post-rationalisation.

Even one 'worst example' of a transwoman entering a woman's prison is too many. The only acceptable level of risk is no risk.

Does this mean you think you can tell if somebody is a predator, or a safeguarding risk? Because you can't. And assuming you can is incredibly dangerous.

No, I don't, but by that rationale everyone should be in solitary, including the guards.

Even one Rose West in a women's prison is too many, yet there she is, and I know I'd rather be incarcerated with Paris Lees than with Rose West. The world is just a bit more complex than the one dimension you seem to be capable of thinking in.

Safeguarding is a complex framework intended to recognise, manage and minimise risk to those most vulnerable.

Yep, and there are issues of competing risks here, it's not a binary where all XX people are more vulnerable than all XY people. I'm presuming you've heard of -
—deep breath— intersectionality?

I 'accept' transwomen as transwomen, not as women.

Transwomen with no intact male bits, fully transitioned, presenting female too

I'm deliberately cutting that short, because this thread is specifically in the context of discussing a dangerous criminal, and I wanted to make a point in relation to this. The 'intact male bits' or not, or their ' presentation' isn't the main thing that makes dangerous males dangerous to women or children - it's their psychology. Their greater strength facilitates their ability to commit physical harm, but their behaviour comes from their heads.

There are vulnerable prisoners of both sexes.
The Ministry of Justice has a duty of care to all of them.

The specific vulnerabilities of male prisoners who have had genital surgery, present in a feminine way and/or have the gender identities 'trans women', trans femme', 'non-binary' etc will of course have to be considered and acted upon.

There is no logical reason (based on safeguarding & duty of care etc) to conclude they should be housed in the female estate anymore than other male prisoners who are similarly vulnerable and whose needs are (should be) managed within the male estate.

Verbeena wrote:

Sun 09-Dec-18 21:18:14

'Please, please, try to read my posts. The extreme posters say no transwomen with penises in our spaces.'

So, obviously, you consider not wanting bepenised transwomen in female spaces an extremist position.

Don't tell me you forgot what opinion you held last night!?

I wonder just what proportion of the 557 messages on this thread have been written by one poster, turning the whole thread into a personal conversation with them, mostly consisting of there's no point explaining or talking to you (while continuously continuing to post), I said, you said, no I didn't, you're all a bunch of meanies, and mythical offence being taken over normal grammar?

Massive investment of time, effort and energy into boring as many people off the thread as possible, making it look like just another tedious bunfight, and preventing anyone else managing a discussion of anything important. Score.

Yes. I looked at the other threads to see why, Verbeena, and you appear to have done exactly the same on those too.

You have said repeatedly that you think self-ID is a bad idea but you still haven't said what the criteria should therefore be.

You still haven't explained why you think wanting no male people in female only space is an extreme position.

Just thread after thread filled with tedious, diversionary snark.

Safeguarding is a complex framework intended to recognise, manage and minimise risk to those most vulnerable.

Yep, and there are issues of competing risks here, it's not a binary where all XX people are more vulnerable than all XY people. I'm presuming you've heard of -
—deep breath— intersectionality?

I've worked within safeguarding frameworks, for many years.
Your point suggests you haven't.

Risks are identified and managed. Its an onging process & a complex one.

Yep, and there are issues of competing risks here, it's not a binary where all XX people are more vulnerable than all XY people. I'm presuming you've heard of —deep breath— intersectionality?

I wasn't aware that intersectionality does away with statistics.

NonExistentFox "doesn't mean you judge a group by its worst examples"
yes, this. It's the no to all of them that's the problem bit.

That is why we dont have men in women’s prisons. We say no to all of them.

Why are transwomen different?

It's just no to men in women's spaces, whatever they've done to their bodies and however they dress. That includes men I know for certain are harmless to me, such as my dad.

Yep, and there are issues of competing risks here, it's not a binary where all XX people are more vulnerable than all XY people. I'm presuming you've heard of -
—deep breath— intersectionality?

We exclude all men as a class from women’s provision. It’s irrelevant if man 1 is more vulnerable than woman 2. We exclude as a class.

Your example shows how the concept of intersectionality has been twisted. It was originally intended to look at situations such as how poverty and race interact to disadvantage people further - for example poor women having worse maternity outcomes than rich, and black women having worse outcomes than both, thus being doubly disadvantaged

Intersectionality does not mean we abandon class analysis altogether

Youve still not clarified what about my position is extremist, verbeena. will you?

I haven't forgotten what I said last night.
I said extreme posters say "no transwomen in our spaces with penises!'
Then go on to show it's not the penises that are the problem, as they don't want any transwomen in there at all. Dangly bits or not.
I can't say it any clearer

Pencils because you start off being the only person saying something against the majority, and everyone starts asking stuff. You answer and get told to stop answering, as you're talking too much. That's why.

I said extreme posters say "no transwomen in our spaces with penises!'
Then go on to show it's not the penises that are the problem, as they don't want any transwomen in there at all. Dangly bits or not.

And I clarified for you that "no penises" includes those who used to have one but for whatever reason now do not.

It's the people the penis is or is not attached to that I and others don't want in our spaces. As I indicated earlier, that includes for me the few men I know for certain won't harm me (such as my dad) and this is because I want privacy from men, as well as safety.

So, do you think the Equalities Act, with its explicit provision for single-sex spaces is 'extremist', verbeena?

Anne Ruzlyo discusses the vulnerabilities of female prisoners when housed with male prisoners based on her professional experience and others who work within the prison estates:

This speech was made last year after she was targetted by trans-rights activists including Lily Madigan and unseated from her position as a Labour Women's Officer:

This one from a couple of months ago from 28:00

It’s no men in women’s single sex spaces Verbeena

If you think humans can change sex that’s fine, but I know they can’t

I said extreme posters say "no transwomen in our spaces with penises!'
Then go on to show it's not the penises that are the problem, as they don't want any transwomen in there at all. Dangly bits or not.

There's nothing extreme about saying that the female estate should house only female prisoners.

said extreme posters say "no transwomen in our spaces with penises!'
Then go on to show it's not the penises that are the problem, as they don't want any transwomen in there at all. Dangly bits or not.

I don’t want MEN in women’s spaces. Men.

Is that extreme?

So “men should not be locked up in women’s prison” - that’s an extremist statement?

Just to be clear.

I think the general population would be surprised to hear that.

I said extreme posters say "no transwomen in our spaces with penises!'
Then go on to show it's not the penises that are the problem, as they don't want any transwomen in there at all. Dangly bits or not.

It could be reasonably argued that the 'extreme' viewpoint was one which asserts that a male who has had genital surgery is a woman.

That male prisoners who have had this and/or other medical or surgical interventions should be locked into what should be a single-sex environment with vulnerable females.

That the 'rights' of these males to have their gender identity affirmed by the Ministry of Justice overrides the rights of all of the female prisoners to safety, privacy and dignity.

That the responsibilities of duty of care to all prisoners and the upholding Safeguarding frameworks be damaged in the process.

The world is very crowded, why are we wasting precious space, time and resources on this MAN?

I just wish someone would smuggle in a knife and stick it in his throat!

Huntley is far from the only male who has committed serious crimes against children and or women who is either in the female prison estate or seeking transfer to it.

There are vulnerable female prisoners at the moment locked in, sometimes forced to share communal showers etc with males.

This has been achieved by well-resourced and influential trans-lobbyists both legally and politically. The assertion of the 'rights' of these males over the rights of vulnerable females to safety, dignity and privacy should concern everyone.

The female prisoners do not have well-funded lobbyists or legal firms.
However the more people who speak up on their behalf can help to change things so that the duty of care required to all prisoners can be re-asserted.

MPs have to take this issue seriously or as James Kirkup states, 'politics has failed'

However the more people who speak up on their behalf can help to change things so that the duty of care required to all prisoners can be re-asserted.

MPs have to take this issue seriously or as James Kirkup states, 'politics has failed'

petition is here:
"Fair Play For Women is calling on the government to urgently review prison rules following the sexual assault of two women while in prison by rapist Karen White.

More information on why this is important can be found in this article by James Kirkup in the Spectator.

Fair Play For Women has been pushing hard for more transparency around the risks of trans prison policy on women. We were the first to publish figures on the high number of sex offenders identifying as transgender. Our continued pressure has been instrumental in forcing greater transparency and the MOJ has now released official statistics:

60 out of the 125 transgender inmates in 2017 were convicted of sexual offences.
2018 stats show at least 22 male prisoners are living in women’s prisons (that’s 1 in 200 women prisoners in England and Wales are actually male).

Prison experts have also spoken out condemning the policy:

Andrea Albutt, president of the Prison Governors Association said in June 2018: “I have seen women feeling very threatened by transgender prisoners’ presence. Women prisoners are very vulnerable.”

Frances Crook of the Howard League, a prison reform campaign, has said that she is worried that ‘some men with a history of extreme violence and sexual violence against women have found a new way of exercising aggression towards women’.

The British Psychological Society has said this: “psychologists working with forensic patients are aware of a number of cases where men convicted of sex crimes have falsely claimed to be transgender females for a number of reasons”

Dr James Barrett of the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists has said this: “It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this”

Richard Garside of the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies has written this article saying “My concern about the current approach is that it is appears to privilege the subjective feelings of particular, largely male, prisoners, at the expense of the needs of those prisoners, largely women, who have to live with the decisions imposed upon them.”

The prison policy was created in 2016 following external consultation with transgender campaign group Gendered Intelligence. Advocates for female prisoners were not included. This policy is not fit for purpose and needs urgent and transparent review."

fairplayforwomen.com/petition/

Rowantrees "Huntley is far from the only male" top paragraph bit ( sorry, on phone)
I agree. Which is why no'ones in favour of self ID or just saying you are female on any given day.
That's no reason to dismiss all transwomen though as always male in some eyes.

That's no reason to dismiss all transwomen though as always male in some eyes.

Are you saying you believe humans can change sex?