To think it must be my daughter's fault that she has no friends

[persianpeach]

I have a 20 year old daughter and a 10 year old daughter (I also have two sons but this hasn't happened to them).

Since middle school both of my daughter's have struggled with friendships, this I know is normal to some degree but I'm really starting to believe that it must be my daughter's faults or the way I have brought my daughter's up that has caused this problem. I feel absolutely gutted for them.

They are alike in the respect that they are both lovely girls, mature, kind, good morals, witty, funny, genuine, honest and maybe a little shy. I would have thought that these were great qualities for someone to want in a friend but not so.

They can't seem to keep friends and friendships that start really well seem to end abruptly with no explanation and they are then outcast and totally ignored like they don't exist.

This is making me so sad. We invite girls over for play dates, days out and occasional sleepovers but still this happens.
I'm starting to think I must have raised them in a way that makes them seem unattractive to friends but I just can't figure out why.

My 20 year old daughter still suffers now not having girls to hang out with or holiday with and what's so awful is I can see this pattern repeating itself in my 10 year old daughter.

Has anyone else experienced similar, if we knew what was going wrong we could try and put it right but we are clueless. I'm wondering if they are socially inept, if they have some sort of undiagnosed autism or similar. My eldest has had counselling but they couldn't see why she would have a problem and thought it was just a self esteem issue.

They are lovely girls I just can't see why this is happening but it's heartbreaking please help. I don't think I can go through it all again.

But it's not about the op worrying, the kids are miserable and asking her why it is happening to them one has even went for counselling.. So it's fair for the op to want to try to understand and help. She can't just say to them well don't worry it might resolve its self later. Lack of friendships, bullying, at school or university can be soul destroying at the time and can impact on adult life.

Kids want to fit in, they want to be accepted, no one wants to be the rejected kid, even as an adult people don't want this, and principles, morals, personal judgments don't keep you company. It's a fine line and can be tricky to grasp in keeping a sense of self, but also accepting others, knowing when to take the discussion and when to let it go. To know how to listen to and accept others views and to understand that your view isn't always going to be the right one, to agree to differ without alientating. It's something you grow up witnessing so it comes naturally, or it's something you need to learn because you weren't privy to it growing up.

I haven't RTFT but I was shy during school and university, hated that time, had a few 'friends' but I didn't really fit in. While at uni I got a part time job in a hotel restaurant, and met lots of people I fitted in with including a group of girls who I have been travelling all over the world with and are still my friends today.

It was the going out after shifts ended to pubs and just general messing about at work/complaining about rubbish managers /having to get up early for breakfast shift that helped us all become a good group. They were the first girls I'd been friends with who weren't bitchy, and we still don't talk behind each others backs. I'd say your DD's should find a hobby they love or a part time job, they will find like minded people there. With the hobby they should go for weekends away or out afterwards

I'd say your DD's should find a hobby they love or a part time job, they will find like minded people there. With the hobby they should go for weekends away or out afterwards

I agree with this. You meet people at the club/meeting/activity, the friendships are developed in the bar or pub or restaurant afterwards, or over the weekend away.

Some observations that they to avoid many of the sweeping assumptions some have made.

The personal stories give good insights I believe, if I were in your position OP.

All children I have heard talk of the popular, cool, kids; who tend to be absolute cows to some others, just so long as they have enough 'supporters' around. I have worked in schools with groups on specialist projects and see the dynamic, especially those that 'try' to be with the so-called popular kids .

I remain impressed with those kids that either don't bother trying to be 'in' with the idiots and bullies, or move on their periphery without conflict,seeing through the shallow, and those that try it and move out.

Some schools have a higher percentage if these and it dominates some of the socialisation within those schools, some to a degree that it's cool to not work at school or to try hard earns name-calling. This has been the protocol for years.

Some schools have a great ethos for all students to aspire to achieve and its actually cool to do well, it sounds like your dds would flourish under this ethos.

Like PPs have said, spec. moving to a job where she suddenly was easily accepted.

I have experienced the cool gang, and being berated for doing well, also. I have also been with cool gang kids who who are really quite pleasant kids on their own but ruled by the group dynamic when together,the 'gang mentality'.

My DC have also experienced the popular kids, and one was 'adopted' by them and was continually the centre of jealousies between two particular girls that everyone else seemed to rotate around. She hated having to listen to the bad-mouthing of the one by the other, and vice-versa.

Your dds are well out of it, and I think it's extremely difficult to know anything from what you say about their dynamic around potential friends.

Certainly not enough to make such wild assumptions.

It comes across that you are able to maintain good friendships.

I would be inclined to ask what they are looking for in their friendships, to discover if they have realistic expectations, and how they manage disappointments.

They can also be experiencing the 'trying on' that ppl do, and reacting badly to not being found by others to be a good fit for the other. Therefore forming a belief that 'nonone' likes them and so on.

There could be so many reasons; I also see many kids that do hate their parents and have extremely poor relationships, but am absence of this is not a red flag at all!

Not all teens are the same and some mature very quickly and don't blindly follow others. It's just that some 'gang up' together for strength for their insecurities.

Schools, colleges and unis can be extremely hard to navigate and for some impossible, but that's not always a reflection of any individuals fault to struggle with it.

Op, I look at this at this and wonder why you feel the issues are with your daughter(s) at all? Perhaps your daughter (s) are free spirited, independent, organised, intelligent, self sufficient,determined & independent young women/and this may intimidate those who are not? In my experience women/friends I have known, since teenage yrs, who are not similar to me ( I sound like your daughter) and deal/organise their lives in a different way , albeit their own way) tend to shy away from from me. Mainly and from talking to them with the perspective of hindsight
& the passage of time ,because I make/made them question themselves. I have complete financial ( owned my own home) and emotional independence from everyone and by that I mean I rely on no one but myself and
have done from a very young age (18). Not by choice more by necessity. I was out on my ear! I have found over the years, some of my female friends have struggled with this as they do not have the independence, emotional strength , financial security or tenacity to make changes that I have and they crave. They have admitted this now we are all older. Experience shows me that rather than introspectively look at ones self and what you can do to improve yourself, ( I have done this) the issues may in fact lie with others and how they perceive themselves. Some friends/people , and they have since admitted this to me over the years, have found it easier to sack me off as I have challenged them without even knowing. They have questioned their own self, based on what I have done. I basically made them feel bad about themselves by just being myself. One 'friend' recently got in contact and told me she ghosted/unfriended me 14 yrs ago simply because her husband made a passing comment and said I looked smart in my work clothes! She didn't work at the time,raising children, as was I until I returned to work and thought that her husband would run off with me. Her issue, not mine. I didn't even find him remotely attractive and didn't interact with him at all ever! So I was binned! No thought was given to me. All she saw was an financially independent woman and felt threatened.
I was devastated at the time as I considered her a dear friend. It was all HER issue, not mine. I wouldn't personally jump to the conclusion that the issue is with your daughter.(s), or that they have Autism or Aspergers. By all means consider it as I did and have it ruled out ,as I did. Everyone is different and people deal with things in a different way. Doesn't make it right or wrong, just means that some people stand out and do things differently from others and that can, on occasion make some who handle life
differently feel uneasy and insecure and the way that they deal with it is to block it out & cut you off. In this case I wonder if your daughter is being blocked out because she makes others look into themselves and
maybe they don't like what they see? Your girls will find their tribe. Don't worry. You have and are raising 2 fine young women. Let them be and continue to give them the freedom , security and confidence they need to be who they really are.

Good previous observation by pp also that use of 'no-one' [likes me], 'everyone' 'hates' [me].

This is emotional language that needs drilling down into, to establish with your dds that they actually can't say things like 'no-one', as they don't know/havent met everyone, and 'hate', actually very small minority would actively 'hate' and they are best avoided anyway.

Teachers will tell you the 'traumas' and 'dramas' that continue to plague secondary school girls, until the final gcse years, and even then not necessarily!

For many, it can just be part and parcel of school and not finding your tribe until work, hobbies, other activities so focus on that.

From persianpeach's OP

Since middle school both of my daughter's have struggled with friendships,
and her other posts
She is quite principled

there is autism/Aspergers in his side of the family (His Mum and his brother and our niece)

They do however seem more moralistic maybe for their age and I suppose and have a strong sense of right and wrong

They could also been seen as boring and inflexible as they won't join in with certain things that other kids see as fun

The criteria for autism dx are "The characteristics of autism vary from one person to another, but in order for a diagnosis to be made, a person will usually be assessed as having had persistent difficulties with social communication and social interaction and restricted and repetitive patterns of behaviours, activities or interests since early childhood, to the extent that these "limit and impair everyday functioning"."
www.autism.org.uk/about/what-is/asd.aspx

To reiterate persistent difficulties with social communication and social interaction

IF autism is the reason the girls are not able to form friendships and socialise successfully for want of a better term, it will be absolute hell for them to force them to do it in the same way NT people do.

Please OP, push for assessments for both girls by a professional who knows how autism presents in women and girls.

Hard to say really.
Neither of my kids are in the centre of it socially. DD is 16 and it’s improved for her in recent months but she’s quirky and attracts a certain type of person. Things that helped were doing a completely different activity in the summer with all new people and also starting sixth form.
DS - 14 - can make friends easily but a lot of boy friendships are through Fortnite and online now so he doesn’t meet up with friends that much.
I model good friendships - I have a lot of long-standing friends of 30+ years although most were made through a youth organisation in my teens, not through school. I find it easy to make friends now though - I smile a lot, am friendly and willing to socialise, and I don’t blow people out on a regular basis!! Being a friendly person, but not over friendly is important I think - when someone gets too keen too quickly it puts me off. However, I’ve had times where I’ve struggled to make connections - you have to find the right environment/people.

Op, i don't think your daughters are on any spectrum. I think they are free spirited independent young women who know their own minds and have opinions based on the secure and stable up bringing you have given them. If their friends find this difficult and it
causes them to look within themselves and reject your daughters than that's their issue. One wonders how they have been brought up. Both my eldest son and I sound like your daughters, been assessed and no diagnosis. We are who we are and good decent principled people. Its just our personality with a sense of self. Don't always look to blame the self. Let OTHER people take the responsibility for their own actions. Let THEM look at how they interact with people and why they behave the way that they do. Cutting people out is a rude, cowardly, lazy way to treat people and shows a complete lack of any sense of responsibility or accountability on the part of the instigator. .Your daughters 'friends' should look at THEMSELVES and how they treat fellow human beings not your daughters looking at what they do. Maybe rename this thread 'people are d**%s and treat my well brought up free spirited independent young women daughters badly because they are insecure in themselves' . Nothing wrong with your daughters OP .

@persianpeach

Sometimes in life you just don't fit in with the crowd around you, it isn't anyone's fault as such. I had plenty of friends throughout school but I struggled at University. I was the same person. The same with work, in one place I had loads of friends, in another I struggled to even have someone to talk to at the water cooler!!

You say your dd1 has strong morals so maybe she needs to look for clubs, campaign groups or political parties even that fit in with her views. I have a good friend who I have known for ever and at times she can be too earnest, serious and preachy, always trying to improve me, it can be very annoying but I know her heart is in the right place so I let it go over my head and she is doing a job that makes the world a better place! If your dd1 can find a place to channel her strong morals and opinions, I am sure she will find people who not only can handle it but enjoy being around it!
Also don't assume your dd2 will have the same issues, again it may just be that with so many older siblings she is just more mature than her peers. Wait and see what Secondary school brings.

" a person will usually be assessed as having had persistent difficulties with social communication and social interaction and restricted and repetitive patterns of behaviours, activities or interests since early childhood, to the extent that these "limit and impair everyday functioning".""

That doesn't describe OP's DDs to me. It seems they can communicate fine, can make friends, but have trouble keeping them.

" If their friends find this difficult and it
causes them to look within themselves and reject your daughters than that's their issue. "

Well it's not actually, it's the DDs' issue. They're the ones who end up lonely, not the other girls.

I should just help them accept that the friends they have made and kept are also very nice, non followers like themselves and that is good enough.

So they do have nice friends, they are just not at the centre of a cool, popular group? I wonder whether this is more about managing expectations then? They can either be more independent and have a smaller group of friends, or they can be less independent and go with the crowd. I do think sometimes it is about compromise and acceptance without giving up your own moral boundaries. So not badgering others not to smoke whilst at the same time saying that you don't fancy it.

Maybe they are introverts who haven’t found their “people” yet. I read the book Quiet by Susan Cain and it answered a lot of questions for me. There are some psychologists who have put forward the theory that introversion is actually on the autism scale as there are certain traits that are common. I am no psychologist so I’m making no assumptions about that but I would recommend the book, just to see how much of it makes sense. It might make your DDs feel more at ease with themselves and comfortable in their own skin.

It seems they can communicate fine, can make friends, but have trouble keeping them.
This is very common in girls with autism. They are often very good at copying behaviours so are able to make friends but lack the deeper social/communication skills and understanding required to maintain friendships.

From what you’ve described OP, it may be worth having a read about girls with ASD and see if you feel it fits.

Also as you’ve said, teach them that they can still be friends with someone who has different views than them. I’m friends with people who have very different parenting views, different attitude towards money, etc. I can still stand by my ‘principals’ and be friends with others who don’t share my views.

Hi OP. Most of what you described, I could have written word-for-word about my 17 year old daughter! She has just been diagnosed with high functioning autism.
Girls are very adept at 'masking', and mimicking socially acceptable behaviours from their peers, which is why they are often diagnosed much later than boys.
Good luck.

Im quite introverted but love to laugh and chat with similar others, and don't ingratiate myself with anyone. Queen Bee types dont like me at all and Ive often been undermined and picked on

This describes my beautiful 23 year old DD exactly. She has a partner now but I do wish she had a female friend.

I think your DDs sound lovely OP, not their fault they aren't part of the "Herd".

I see this in my ds 18. Whereas dd has always gravitated to people, ds prefers his own company. When he was younger he tried to fit in, but he’s happier just with his girlfriend now. That’s why I’m so sure sociability is an inherited trait. He got that trait from me, whereas dd got hers from her dad.

I thought my daughter struggled with friends as she as a little more mature than her peers and it made sense as she was also one of the oldest. She doesn’t do bitchiness easy and her and I have a close relationship. She’s just been diagnosed as autistic. Came as a huge shock. Even my best friend who has an Austic son and my daughter has slept over her house for years did not realise. Seemingly more mature than peers can be a sign as autistic girls train themselves to act like others and they can act more adult like. But it’s an act so they struggle to make lasting friendships. I’ve only just realised at 48 that I’m austic too. People think it must be obvious but it’s not if you only have a few traits and girls often still have excellent eye contact etc.