To think it must be my daughter's fault that she has no friends

[persianpeach]

I have a 20 year old daughter and a 10 year old daughter (I also have two sons but this hasn't happened to them).

Since middle school both of my daughter's have struggled with friendships, this I know is normal to some degree but I'm really starting to believe that it must be my daughter's faults or the way I have brought my daughter's up that has caused this problem. I feel absolutely gutted for them.

They are alike in the respect that they are both lovely girls, mature, kind, good morals, witty, funny, genuine, honest and maybe a little shy. I would have thought that these were great qualities for someone to want in a friend but not so.

They can't seem to keep friends and friendships that start really well seem to end abruptly with no explanation and they are then outcast and totally ignored like they don't exist.

This is making me so sad. We invite girls over for play dates, days out and occasional sleepovers but still this happens.
I'm starting to think I must have raised them in a way that makes them seem unattractive to friends but I just can't figure out why.

My 20 year old daughter still suffers now not having girls to hang out with or holiday with and what's so awful is I can see this pattern repeating itself in my 10 year old daughter.

Has anyone else experienced similar, if we knew what was going wrong we could try and put it right but we are clueless. I'm wondering if they are socially inept, if they have some sort of undiagnosed autism or similar. My eldest has had counselling but they couldn't see why she would have a problem and thought it was just a self esteem issue.

They are lovely girls I just can't see why this is happening but it's heartbreaking please help. I don't think I can go through it all again.

I didn’t make friends at uni but I’m not “on the spectrum.”

I have a handful of close friends and DP but I generally find people annoying and don’t want to have loads of friends thanks.

Yes, was wondering from the first post if it might be ASD.

I wasn't really bullied myself, but there just wasn't anyone at school I was that interested in being friends with. Practically everyone at uni and beyond whom I made friends with at all closely has had ASD traits (which I noticed in most of them before realising it applied to me too). I was mostly friends with boys at uni as most of the time I had nerdy, information-based ways of communicating that fitted better with them, and these people were tolerant of eccentricities and very straightforward. (Loud and nerdy, as one PP said, was a good description of the groups and societies where things fell into place for me. They are not always the coolest but they are usually welcoming. I was weird within them for being kind of fashionable in my tastes when no one else in them was, but they didn't care because I didn't go on at them about it and mostly talked about the shared interests.)

I didn't often *inexplicably fall out with people, but my puzzlement about one incident does stick with me, and it does in retrospect look like a misreading of my tone by another girl and her friends whom I never clicked with particularly well in the first place, but had made a lot of effort with for a couple of years anyway. Although I didn't honestly love their company (it was just okay) I was really hurt and bewildered after it happened.

When I got older I learned more social skills and the women I met seemed less concerned with or less bothered by these strange minutiae - both me and others changed (whether the latter was because I got to know different types of people, or more women were easier to fit in with as we got older).

It’s really not your daughter’s fault for being bullied OP.

Sometimes people don’t fit in, I don’t think I do really but as I get older I care far less.

Do they have any friends that are boys? At least since teenage years I've always had more male friends than female, starting off probably due to being a bit of a tomboy and then professionally spending most of my time with men.

I do have female friends but I've always found female friendship groups harder to read and navigate, and though people probably find me very friendly, deeper friendships with women don't come as naturally to me. Maybe your daughters are similar.

My eldest has never tried smoking or taking drugs and she can't and never could understand why teenagers hate their parents

So many articles give the impression this is pretty normal at 20 these days!

Penny's post resonates with me too.

I don't believe for one second they don't have friends because they don't do smoking or drugs- I never did but didn't really struggle with friends, although I found it much easier as an adult and generally found teen groups a bit of a nightmare.

Don't dwell on what you 'got wrong', your older dd sounds like she has hit some unpleasant characters at uni, and should be asking for help if she is being bullied, not asking people what's wrong with her.

Your 10 year old is not the same child, and you would be doing her a bit of disservice by writing off her friendship skills at 10, both mine have struggled at different times but found different ways to make and maintain friends over the years.

My kid is the same. She has a very mature moral compass which I see & she does have a tendency to judge others. I personally don't have a problem with her finding her own level as long as she doesn't actually share her views with others or put people down. Which she doesn't. She has always struggled to find a friendship group without bitchiness as its par for the course at their age, so she draws away from those who are unkind. Then she feels lonely. I think she will settle when her peers have matured but for now it is tough for her even though adults tell me she is delightful and such a joy to be around. She might just be one of those people who find her friends in adulthood.

"you only need one good friend to be a winner in this game."

Not true. You can't rely on one, or even 2 or 3 people. What happens when they move away? Or when you're older and they just change and you drift apart or they find serious partners?

Sounds like my dd who is autistic. She's found her tribe now at secondary school but primary school was awful for her. I couldn't possibly say, from the information given, that your dd's are autistic but I do think it's worth you looking into. I remember my dd saying she must be an awful person because nobody likes her. It wasn't even true that nobody did but she just didn't get how friendships worked so she couldn't see it. For her getting a diagnosis was like a weight being lifted because now she understood that she wasn't awful at all.

"Now that I figured out that if a friend asks if I want to do X activity, just saying no loses me friends, and saying "No, but I would like to do Y" or giving a good excuse helps keep friends, I am a bit better at keeping friends. "

My dad told me that if he's invited to a party he just says 'No, I don't want to'. That made me laugh because even as a teenager I knew you'were supposed to say you were tired or you were busy on that date :)
He's a loner so he doesn't care...

you only need one good friend to be a winner in this game I'm talking about school or uni friendships. There seems to be a current prevailing idea that you have to be super-popular and have 10 friends and 100 nearly friends and spent a lot of time on social media to even be a normal person. This isn't helpful for teenage girls at all.

I think making friends with one or two nice people and forming your own friendship group is much easier than trying to infiltrate popular groups who get off on being a bit horrid to the outside members or suddenly turn on people.

If you make one or two friends wherever you go and keep in touch, you end up in adulthood with a good range of friends. That's what happened to me, I've always struggled in groups but have kept one or two friends from most places I've been or worked- a best friend from school, a colleague from somewhere else, and I have a lovely set of friends later in life. If one moves off, or gets a new partner, you have the skills to find another good friend which might happen over time or through common interests, it takes time to get to know people really well, I find.

"she can't and never could understand why teenagers hate their parents and says that she's never felt that way about us and just kept quiet when other powers slagging their parents off."

I'm sorry, but that screams overbearing parents to me.

I do not like gossiping, two faced people or bitchiness but it wises to learn not to judge immediately and definitely not to write people off. I have found that some of the people who I have initially disliked for these traits are often insecure themselves and once the friendship grows so does the need to fill empty conversation blanks with bitchiness.

"you only need one good friend to be a winner in this game I'm talking about school or uni friendships"

It's still not true. Your school friend's parent could get a job somewhere else and have to move. Your uni friend could find a boyfriend and have very little time for you. You need more than one friend and I'd argue even more than 2 or 3.

"mature, kind, good morals, witty, funny, genuine, honest and maybe a little shy."

Of those I'd say that only witty and funny help someone make friends. Unfortunately the things to do with being a good person don't really so good morals, genuine and honest don't mean much. We all say we want to be friends with nice people, but we also all know some horrible people who are popular. People want to be friends with interesting people more than they do with nice/good people.

Being shy is obviously a major drawback in making friends.

I'm over 40 now and it's only about 8 years ago that I realised why I'm so unpopular.

I work on an autism diagnostic team. This kind of pattern of fractured social history occurring to the bewilderment of the girl concerned is one of the things we look for in autistic girls.

I think it is odd that you can't work out why they're unable to make friends at all. IME it is usually clear why someone doesn't have friends.

Do you have a friend or relative who knows them and would tell you truthfully if you ask?

I've had the opposite at times - people whom I thought were friends but who mysteriously disappeared when I really needed them. Or the one who couldn't wait to tell me how he actually thought I was stupid and gullible over nappies of all things.!

Thing was they were fun and I was there for them - we had good times but it dawned on me that they almost never phone me, almost never asked how I was and whether I was alright, even at times when I wasn't - they were just very selfish people. I was a fun good-time girl not a real person and HOW DARE I change lanes and be depressed!

Making and keeping friends is damn hard - I have ASD too but it is easier for me to live a true life than pretend to be someone else to please others. I guess I haven't got that much advice but when they do make friends they do tend to be loyal, just not necessarily their demographic - mine are mostly older men!

There quite ore a few weeks issues I think BUT I'm going to come at this with a different angle

I have found the girls who are quick to jump in and make new friends are usually bored of their own crown and the queen bee tends to make a new line for a new face. They are all nice and welcoming chew you up and spit you out

Your daughters need to look at the friends they pick and see if there's a common trait - do the ever friend the quiet kid in the corner? The nerdy kid who's lonely? Or are they trying to fit in with the hip kids who are more shallow?

Also kids who were bullied tend to be quite insular - for good reason. They find it difficult to open up and expose any weaknesses for anyone to use against them.

Also - we moved to a nicer area than we are used to, and found a while different culture which my girls didn't fit the mould - they have great sense of humour for example that the others didn't get

Think more outside the box and see if there's a bigger reason

Having two children, one like your daughters and one a socialite queen bee, I have thought about this long and hard and am convinced the need and skill of socialisation is a genetic trait.

Ds just likes his own company and doesn’t really need people, like me, whereas dd craves company and friendship. Although your dd’s May think they want friends because at that age no one wants to be the outsider, they may actually come to realise it isn’t what they need- I may be wrong of course.

It's still not true. Your school friend's parent could get a job somewhere else and have to move. Your uni friend could find a boyfriend and have very little time for you. You need more than one friend and I'd argue even more than 2 or 3

I agree- a wider circle of friends is better than just one friend, for sure! But the OP says her dd has no friends. So, having one friend to sit next to in class or go for a coffee with after lectures would be a 100% improvement for her. Plus if you make friends with one person, they may also have a bigger group or other friends you could join for a film or invite to a birthday party.

GreenTulip's advice is good. When I moved to a new area or into a new workplace, I don't look at the most popular group and then try to insert myself in a well-established clique, I tend to look for people like me, who probably aren't chatting with anyone and look like they might like a new friend too! Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't, but I've found hanging out with similar type people (so if you are quite bookish, go to book groups, if you love a particular hobby, go there, invite a new colleague for lunch) is much easier for making friends than just launching in at generic groups like school mums who all stand together in the playground and aren't really looking for new friends. .

Uni is horribly similar to school in terms of being a bit cliquey I found, although I did make friends eventually.

I’ve never made long term friends and never will. My disability makes it difficult and I don’t like being in a situation where I could be rejected.

Sounds like me. I have HFA. Obviously, there is more to having ASC than just friendship issues but it is part of it.

Is one of you Samantha Brick?