To think it must be my daughter's fault that she has no friends

[persianpeach]

I have a 20 year old daughter and a 10 year old daughter (I also have two sons but this hasn't happened to them).

Since middle school both of my daughter's have struggled with friendships, this I know is normal to some degree but I'm really starting to believe that it must be my daughter's faults or the way I have brought my daughter's up that has caused this problem. I feel absolutely gutted for them.

They are alike in the respect that they are both lovely girls, mature, kind, good morals, witty, funny, genuine, honest and maybe a little shy. I would have thought that these were great qualities for someone to want in a friend but not so.

They can't seem to keep friends and friendships that start really well seem to end abruptly with no explanation and they are then outcast and totally ignored like they don't exist.

This is making me so sad. We invite girls over for play dates, days out and occasional sleepovers but still this happens.
I'm starting to think I must have raised them in a way that makes them seem unattractive to friends but I just can't figure out why.

My 20 year old daughter still suffers now not having girls to hang out with or holiday with and what's so awful is I can see this pattern repeating itself in my 10 year old daughter.

Has anyone else experienced similar, if we knew what was going wrong we could try and put it right but we are clueless. I'm wondering if they are socially inept, if they have some sort of undiagnosed autism or similar. My eldest has had counselling but they couldn't see why she would have a problem and thought it was just a self esteem issue.

They are lovely girls I just can't see why this is happening but it's heartbreaking please help. I don't think I can go through it all again.

Are they in any clubs? What are their interests

Maybe back off a bit. You may have created the idea in their head that there is a problem and that then becomes self fulfilling.

Eg my dd is 7. She was still flitting between friendships but has settled on a core group in the last year. I have not made a big deal where she’s fallen out with people as she’s just finding her tribe. Plus they always end up making up again.

On the other hand, a rather anxious mum of one of dd’s Friends made a massive deal about the fact her child and mine no longer play together as much, she spoke to school and me. Kept saying “oh your dc has just gone off mine, why is that etc etc”. Her dc wasn’t upset - she was. But she’s massively over reacted about a bunch of 6-7 year olds who will sometimes be blunt or only play with kids who like the same toys.

My dd is pretty socially mature and emotionally sensitive and knows that sometimes people don’t want to play with her. She shrugs and doesn’t take it to heart.

I agree Believeit. I'm happy with my select group of friends. I didn't want to talk about teething and potty training.

"Maybe back off a bit. You may have created the idea in their head that there is a problem and that then becomes self fulfilling. "

I'm not sure about that. I wish my parents had been more proactive about it when I was growing up.

I have 1 female friend that I see regularly and I grew up like your girls. My 10 year old is very similar.

Girl groups are hard work. My daughter likes to be right. I think that's her problem. She is geeky and obsessive (Harry Potter atm!) and into science and engineering. She'll never fit in to what is perceived as the norm at school.

Luckily she does have a big "girl group" but she doesn't really have a best friend and she tends to be the last to be invited to make up numbers. She is very bossy and people annoy her.

I know why she is like this as she is just like me.

Maybe you need to try to observe your youngest with friends and see if there's anything obvious?

Personality traits often run in families. I'm like my dad, I get on great in groups, volunteering, working with others but underneath it all I can't be bothered to take it further, I like me the best . I think my girl is the same.

Honestly it’s probably the highly moral, principled thing.

I remember a lot of girls like that who thought they were very wise and mature, but I think pretty much everyone else found their very simplistic, black and white approach to life immature. There was no room to be a decent person who had some faults or made mistakes or simply lived life differently, because once you did something they didn’t agree with you were forever tainted in their eyes. That’s not pleasant to be around, even when it only presents as silent disapproval.

IME no one minds if you don’t smoke or drink or gossip or share stories about your parents, but no one wants to be around people who make them feel like shit for those things either. Most 20yr olds are going to want to do a bit of partying and experimenting, and they won’t take well to someone else their age judging them for it. Likewise 10 year olds are going to want to vent about their parents, teachers etc. and that’s normal.

I agree with a pp that their might be an empathy issue here as well. Both girls are more than old enough to know, for example, that a lot of children complain about their parents because they don’t have happy home lives.

I remember a lot of girls like that who thought they were very wise and mature, but I think pretty much everyone else found their very simplistic, black and white approach to life immature

Yes this is what I suspect also. The ops comment on never understanding why someone would hate their parents is a good example of the black and white approach, the lack of empathy, acceptance, the understanding of the grey areas, the inability to understand when someone is just sounding off, or having fun, or experimenting, and it is often a lack of maturity.

It's good to have principles, but without maturity to expresss those, it can come across as morally superior, unbending, judgemental and it would cause kids to disengage with you. And yes, cast you aside.

Thank you for all your replies they have been very interesting and insightful.

I think that maybe the difficulties they are experiencing might be to do with having a very strong moral compass and being determined not to compromise that for friendships which in turn makes them come across as a bit superior to everyone?

They could also been seen as boring and inflexible as they won't join in with certain things that other kids see as fun (if it's going to cause any harm or be a bit too risky).

They don't join in when friends are being unkind or gossiping about other people so could be seen as being boring too I suppose.

In essence I do think they are lovely, kind, caring and thoughtful girls and I should just help them accept that the friends they have made and kept are also very nice, non followers like themselves and that is good enough. I do remember the manager at my youngest daughter's pre school saying that she was a leader not a follower and thought it was such an odd thing to say at the time.

I think I should also help them to understand that they can be friends with people who aren't so similar and that just because someone chooses to make decisions that they wouldn't choose to make it doesn't make them a bad person as I think maybe they are a little judgemental which is probably a negative trait that I have too if I'm honest.

So thanks again for opening my eyes with all your replies which I think will in turn make me a more tolerant and flexible person and help them to be too. xx

I'm not sure about that. I wish my parents had been more proactive about it when I was growing up

You have to take responsibility for your actions - that’s what I mean by backing off. With my dcs, obviously if they’re having serious problems I’ll step in but with little upsets I’d rather let them find their way (and speak to them about it to guide them) as opposed to planting the idea that something might be wrong.

Believe - it might have been easier for me to change when I was young. I have a bit more awareness now, but the behaviours are entrenched.

Op, you need to teach then empathy, to not be judgemental, to be accepting without following the crowd, to articulate their own views and own them without making everyone else out to be wrong or bad.

The girls aren't leaders, they are loners, leaders are people who have others follow them, this is not the case here. They are being actively shunned.

If this is still happening to your twenty year old that's worrying. As this could be the rest of her life. Inc in the workplace. If the ten year old is following her that's even more concerning.

Talk to them about empathy, understanding, shades of grey, not being judgemental and hard, but how to maintain their own moral compass, to be able to know how to articulate that without alientating.

As your sons don't have the same issues maybe you could use examples from their behaviour.

Op, I would have enjoyed having a friend like your eldest when I was that age

Ive moved from friendship group to friendship group all of my life. There was always someone who didn't like me, then a realisation that I'd outgrown them in some way. When I come across people who have kept the same good, solid friendships for years I feel a bit sad.

Im quite introverted but love to laugh and chat with similar others, and don't ingratiate myself with anyone. Queen Bee types dont like me at all and Ive often been undermined and picked on.

If your daughters have zero time for that kind of negative female bonding, I can see why they've felt a bit lonely. I think it will just take them slightly longer to find their own kind.

Glad that this has been helpful!

I've found that really quantifying their friendships may help- mine often said 'No-one really likes me' or 'I'm not that popular' especially between the ages of 10-13. because as I say, they had an idea that they should be in the centre of a huge gang with lots of friends. Over time, I've encouraged them to see they do have a few core friends- and if you are good friends to them (show up to stuff, enthusiastic to go out if you can, remember birthdays) then this will be reciprocated (and if not, you need to move away or move on). That's what having friends is- not necessarily being part of a huge social circle. Both of them now feel a lot happier with the friendship situation even if they don't feel like the 'most popular' and over time, the circles have got bigger.

It sounds like there's a lot that is right in their friendships- they do have some for a start, not 'none' (don't listen to the hyperbole).

Also- don't treat your 20 year old like your 10 year old and vice versa. Going to secondary will really change things for your 10 year old, friendships can be fraught but don't box her in as the 'not having friends type' at this stage, as this may not be true at all.

Speaking generally, I think friendship should be a matter of give and take. So if someone suggests doing something that you might not have chosen, it's often worth giving it a go. You might enjoy it, and at least you'll have had a new experience and spent time with the other person and got to know them a bit better. Excluding risky behaviour or things you really can't afford, of course.

And you do need to be interested in other people and listen to what they have to say, even if it's only small talk on the lines of 'Did you have a good weekend, what did you think of that last assignment, what are you doing for Christmas? Oh, you're going home to XXXX, I've never been there, what's it like?'

It’s funny you suggested as autism as that is what sprung to my ind initially. It is harder to have autism diagnosed in girls. Girls can mask it for a long time, and it is apparently easier to mask for them than it is for boys. It is more prevalent in boys. They may well be on the spectrum I suppose but obviously a clinical diagnosis would be needed.

I second bluntness in that you need to teach them empathy. They don't need to compromise their own moral compass or join in things they don't want to but they can do this without alienating others. Understanding that others are different and make different choices, but that doesn't mean that they are necessarily bad people.

I do remember the manager at my youngest daughter's pre school saying that she was a leader not a follower and thought it was such an odd thing to say at the time. I think that is code for "she's bossy, inflexible and controlling and wants everyone to do things her perceived correct way"
Bus as a pp said. Over time it's transpired she's not a leader as others don't want to follow. It's just developed into her alienating people because of those traits.

You can help her to look at how she can modify her behavior. You can do this without directly saying it's her own fault but you can subtly help her to open her eyes to showing more empathy. She can continue to be her own person but learn to allow others to be their own person without feeling criticised or judged.

They maybe are coming across as judgmental. Ie if the 20 yo has a friend/potential friend who smokes do they politely decline to join in or do they refuse to be around them/make comment on their habit?

Does the 20yo want friends or does she prefer her own company?

Is this making her unhappy?

Does she have low mood?

Does she do any extra curricular activities?

Does she live at home and her course mates live in halls? Nothing improves social skills like living in halls for a year!

The things people like - acceptance and valuing others differences and experiences (while keeping own moral compass), warm humour, empathy, being inquisitive, listening well.

Are you’re DDs proactive. Do they make arrangements to meet others or do they rely on others arranging stuff?

If they dictate to others around them kids do get sick of being forced/directed.

You say you can be similar op as you can be intolerant and inflexible. Could they be learning it from you? Are you able to teach them empathy?

It's your comment that they can never understand why kids hate their parents. An adult writing this should have seen the red flags all over it. Because there is plenty of reasons kids should hate their parents, many are in abusive homes, overly controlled, no freedom, made to do too many chores, stifled, authoritarian, but you wrote it like you were proud of them for thinking this, like it was good, when you should have immediately thought " that's a major problem". In addition every adult should know that even if the parents are great kids often just sound off. They hate the parents in the moment becayse they aren't allowed to do something or have to do something. So why didn't you see that your statement was a big red flag and indicative to the problem?

In addition you claim to have good friends, but then tell us you only see these friends every few months. Which woild inidcate you don't actually have any close friends either.

If this is the case and you're not able to teach them empathy, that their view is not the only one, that they can't force their views on others, then can your husband? Can their brothers?

Because it this is a behaviour they have grown up witnessing and learning, it will take a lot of unlearning.

It's ok to say I'm not the best person to teach my children this, but I will find someone who can and I will explain to them how my behaviour is not a good example to follow and the damage it can do is that it will alienate people and cause them to cast you off, or at best tolerate you.

You can easily be bullied at uni. My DS was. He's a sociable, kind and understanding chap with no side and masses of friends. But the uni put him in accommodation in a student flat with people who like him had answered "yes" to the question - do you like music? It turns out they liked watching it on telly while he likes playing it or going to gigs. He was also a year older than them and had travelled lots (by earning his own money), In the early weeks he'd plan to go out with them and they'd just leave without him, or go to a different place than agreed, or invite friends over for supper and make sure he wasn't included. He says he never mentioned his music or travelling because he could tell they wouldn't be interested and came from the same town. They made no effort with the Chinese girl rooming there either.. The university - like most nowadays - was not volitional in solving student problems (eg moving accommodation). DS was hugely unhappy. This was a group of young men and women.

He moved uni and never had the same problem there or anywhere else he's lived or worked. So it can be a sort of groupthink, but it was definitely bullying by exclusion.

As other PPs have said, it probably hard if you have a non-smoking, non-drinking daughter of 20 and moral standards that the OP emphasises. It could just be that her DDs aren't interested in pink, nail varnish and boys (the 10 year old) and gossip, clothes, social media, boys and going out (the twenty year old). If they make that clear or simply don't want pamper parties/freshers weeks they could very easily lose friends for whom it's the all in all.Or could they just have passed critical comment along the lines of "I don't want to come/don't like it/don't understand why you watch such rubbish/we never do that at home" - all ways you either to learn to say and negotiate later unless you find your own tribe and don't have to say anything at all.

In addition you claim to have good friends, but then tell us you only see these friends every few months. Which would indicate you don't actually have any close friends either.

I wouldn't agree with that. I have friends whom I consider to be close friends, and vice versa, but we don't meet all that often because we don't live near to each other and we all have busy lives. We keep in touch by email and have trips away 2-3 times a year as well as meals and days out when we can arrange it.

It's not the frequency of the meetings, it's the quality of the interaction that makes real friendship, ime. Do you talk about the things that are really important to you, do you listen when friends talk about things that are important to them? Do you have serious conversations on a range of subjects, as well as having a laugh?

Marta a that's fair, but the op doesn't indicate she has friendships like this.

This is such an interesting thread. Bluntness and kmc really have it, I think. I can see that I was similar to your dds and while I had friends, I am so much more popular now than I ever was at school or uni. I have all sorts of friends and don't see diversity as something to be wary of.

I really had to unlearn what my parents taught me about our safe, dull, middle class way of life being the right or the only way. I can hear and challenge it nowadays when they pass judgement or comment on others but back then it was entirely my norm and I probably unconsciously did the same with others.

I wouldn’t worry too much. School and university are quite artificial environments. I struggled for a long time with friendships as a teenager. Then I moved to a nicer school and made lots of long term friends. When I left school I started socialising more with people who were older. I get on well with people from university. Perfectly happy to chat with other mums from school etc. I have my close friends. Some of them are from years back but the people I am closest to are people I met after school.