To think that racial diversity in film casting has gone slightly bonkers...

[AngeloMysterioso]

When you have an Asian actress playing Bess of Hardwick?

I just can’t see why anyone thought it was appropriate to have such a prominent woman in English history being played by somebody who is Chinese- can you imagine the outcry if an important black woman was being played in a film by someone who isn’t black, or indeed a significant Asian character being played by a white woman? There’d be uproar, and rightly so. And yet, in the new Mary Queen of Scots film we have a white Englishwoman being played by Gemma Chan.

This Chinese author/blogger said pretty much the same thing, pointing out that when Ed Skrein was cast as a fictional Japanese character in Hellboy the public response was so furious that he ended up quitting. And Bess of Hardwick isn’t even a fictional character, she was a very real woman, an ancestor of our current Queen, whose life and legacy are quite remarkable.

I don’t want anyone to think that there is any racism behind this post at all. I think Gemma Chan is a fantastic actress, but I don’t know, there’s just something about it that reeks of tokenism.

@southeastdweller Bess of Hardwick as a historical figure was white. But in this adaptation, the character's race is not pivotal to the story, so it's fine for a BAME actor to get the role.

It would not be fine for a white actor to play a BAME historical figure because a) there are already not enough roles for BAME actors and b) given the scarcity of BAME historical figures (due to the whitewashing of history), the character's race would almost certainly be important within the story.

It's quite simple.

"People have a massively skewed view anyway, since minorities are barely visible in most period dramas, despite being in what is now the UK for centuries."

The UK was overwhelmingly white until very recently. The existence of very small numbers of black and Asian people in large urban centers does not change this basic fact.

Augusta2012

Honestly not sure if you are aiming for satire or stupidity or straight out racism with that post.

I don’t think diversity in film/tv has gone bonkers, so to speak. I think it’s a good thing if everyone is represented. I just think that historical characters should keep within the race/sex of the person being represented. Be that black/white/Asian.

In fact, I think people who are supposedly anti-racists are the biggest racists on the planet today. Their entire theory rests on applying negative blanket characteristics to white people purely on the basis of race: that really is racist in its purest form.

Maybe if so many white people weren't racist, we would stop calling white people racist? Obviously not all white people are racist, not even close, but there are enough racist white people that we are in this fucked up society today. Stop acting as if white people are some victimised minority who are having their feelings hurt when other people point out racism. Count yourself lucky that you're not a POC who has to deal with actual racism.

The UK was overwhelmingly white until very recently

Black soldiers came to Britannia with the Roman armies and settled. Groups of many races came to these islands through the centuries and settled.

The overwhelming ignorance of white people and the air brushing of PoC from from British history does not change that basic fact.

What if Sophie Okonedo were cast as Elizabeth 1 in a biopic?

She’s a brilliant actress & could play any role she set her mind to.

But, there’s zero chance that a black woman could ever have been The Queen of England....so wouldn’t it be an absurd characterisation?

I know we all want to say “It’s only a skin colour” because of course, that’s true....but skin colour has had immense consequences for human beings since forever & it’s impacted on lives in ways that we can’t (and shouldn’t) overlook.

If Bess of Hardwicke had Chinese parents, that would not have been unimportant back then. Actually, it would have been quite remarkable and would have meant a life story very different from her actual one.

A fictional character is fictional and a story can be manipulated and reimagined as many times as we like. We could, if we wanted, give Sherlock Holmes a whole different universe and have him played by Idris Elba or Adrian Lester. Or Olivia Colman.

But an actual, real person with an actual real history which would, undeniably, have been entirely different if their skin colour were noticeably different - that’s a whole different kettle of fish.

I don’t think, personally, that if you’re seeking to do a straightforward biopic of a real human being you can’t change them significantly. If you’re just using them as a basis for a fictionalised version...Bess Hardwicke in Space, for example...then it doesn’t matter.

PoC have been in the UK since before the Tudor’s. In fact there is a book called black tudors which tells you a little about a few real black tudors.

There were a handful. Probably barely even reaching double figures. Most British people would go their entire life without seeing a black person. They were extremely unusual and most of them were exotic curiosities imported by aristocrats as decoration.

It’s just simply not true that we were in any way a mixed or multicultural country pre-1950s

Claims we’ve always been a diverse society or a mongrel race are just simply not true. We where a relatively homogeneous genetic group for 12,000 years.

To claim otherwise is simply a lie peddled by propagandists.

There were a handful. Probably barely even reaching double figures

You might want to broaden your range of reading on history and demographics. Or at least do some.

There is a good Radio 4 Great Lives podcast on Bess of Hardwick.

Maybe if so many white people weren't racist, we would stop calling white people racist? Obviously not all white people are racist, not even close, but there are enough racist white people that we are in this fucked up society today. Stop acting as if white people are some victimised minority who are having their feelings hurt when other people point out racism. Count yourself lucky that you're not a POC who has to deal with actual racism.

Well thank you for another perfect example. You are arguing that all white people deserve to be treated badly solely on the basis of their race purely because of some thing a white person who isn’t them has done. You believe in a form of racial collective responsibility. That is racism in its absolutely purest form

And yes, I have experienced racism. Because my niece, along with thousands of other girls up and down the country, was raped and abused for years while the authorities turned a blind eye because she was the wrong colour. It destroyed her as a human being. She’s not a ‘survivor’, the fallout from those years has left her a drug addicted prostitute.

Given that’s one of the highest profile cases of denial of public services on the basis of race in the past 60 years if not forever, it really is starting to wear really thin when people argue white people don’t experience racism.

Tell me when I stood in a police station begging the police to stop a 13 year old being gang raped and pimped out to multiple men and they weren’t interested because of her colour - tell me that wasn’t racism.

I’ve read that book on Black Tudors & there are some really fascinating stories in there, I recall.

But at no point does the author suggest that Tudor Britain was multicultural or ethnically diverse. There were very, very few black people here. Just not none as people had supposed.

I’m sorry about your niece Augusta. I’m finding your tenacity on this thread very brave as so often these perfectly sensible discussions around race are shut down with shouts of racism and most people don’t feel articulate or confident enough to refute them.

And I bet I can imagine the post a lot of you are composing right now. Because liberals always come out with the same tedious response to being confronted about grooming. They say that you’re calling all Muslims rapists even though you’ve said no such thing. Because they want to pretend you’ve said something indefensible to shut down the debate.

I’ll save you the trouble of writing the posts, nobody is saying all Muslims are rapists. The problem lies in the fact that when members of Asian communities committed those crimes, the victims were ignored on the basis of race and the polices prioritisation of the groomers rights above the victims because they were members of a favoured race and the victim was not.

This stuff is just basic racism.

I'm with you indies. If the person being portrayed existed or their 'story' only works if they are portrayed with and within the correct ethnic background then that is the right way to proceed. We should not rewrite history; but we should try harder to be more inclusive with regard to casting modern pieces with poc and different family set ups.

You might want to broaden your range of reading on history and demographics. Or at least do some.

I have. I have a history degree. Can you back up this claim that the UK has had large numbers of black people here since Tudor times?

You can’t. Because it’s a lie. It’s untrue. You cannot back that claim up. You are lying.

This thread reminds me of my Big fat Greek wedding and the dad relating everything to Greek

It's called payback time suck it up!

Going back to Mary Queen of Scots, her mother was Mary of Guise, daughter of Claude Duc of Guise and Antoinette du Bourbon. I think that makes her 50% French.

@Augusta we are talking about the media and white people do not experience racism in the films/tv etc and it's just not the same.

You're clearly damaged from your individual experience but it doesn't prove any kind of point. You are far more likely to be a victim of crime if you are a person of colour than if you are white so not really too sure where you are going with this anyway 🤷‍♀️

There were a few North Africans in the Roman army in Britain and their remains have been found at Hadrian’s Wall. Between then and Tudor times there is only evidence of one black person in Britain. That’s well over one thousand years.

They started keeping parish records in the late 16th century, and those recorded race. There were a handful. A historian wrote a book about it and said there were hundreds. But that distorted reality because the hundreds she found were spread along a long period of history and they weren’t necessarily contemporary to each other. So if you’re looking for snapshots of demographics like we have in the census, you won’t get it. But given there were only hundreds over a long time period, the likelihood is that at any given moment in time the number of black people in Tudor Britain only reached double figures.

It’s very, very sad people are prepared to lie and distort history to support their own agenda.

Sean Connery was a milkman's son. Idris Elba's father worked in a factory. I'd say that makes them both the same class, if 'class' is really a factor in casting Bond...

This reminds me of the fuss when Sophie Okonedo played Margaret of Anjou in The Hollow Crown series. She was fantastic in the role and her ethnicity was irrelevant to the part. No part of the plot hinged on her race, so what difference does it make?

I object to the word ‘tokenism’

It’s ridiculous.

The U.K. is over 80% white British.

On a tv show with a cast of 20 people, casting 4 BAME actors is a valid representation.

On a reality show of 12 contestants, having one or 2 BAME participants is a valid representation.

It’s not a ‘token’ ffs