To think that racial diversity in film casting has gone slightly bonkers...

[AngeloMysterioso]

When you have an Asian actress playing Bess of Hardwick?

I just can’t see why anyone thought it was appropriate to have such a prominent woman in English history being played by somebody who is Chinese- can you imagine the outcry if an important black woman was being played in a film by someone who isn’t black, or indeed a significant Asian character being played by a white woman? There’d be uproar, and rightly so. And yet, in the new Mary Queen of Scots film we have a white Englishwoman being played by Gemma Chan.

This Chinese author/blogger said pretty much the same thing, pointing out that when Ed Skrein was cast as a fictional Japanese character in Hellboy the public response was so furious that he ended up quitting. And Bess of Hardwick isn’t even a fictional character, she was a very real woman, an ancestor of our current Queen, whose life and legacy are quite remarkable.

I don’t want anyone to think that there is any racism behind this post at all. I think Gemma Chan is a fantastic actress, but I don’t know, there’s just something about it that reeks of tokenism.

But there doesn’t seem to be much racism in films and TV. In fact quite the opposite. BAME people are actually incredibly over represented in the UK media. 3% of the UK is black. 1 in 10 Britons are BAME. So if you were going to be scrupulously fair about it, then only one in ten people on TV should be BAME and only 3 black.

But if you read in the following link (which even admits to removing figures for programme like the news and children’s programmes from it’s figures to deliberately make the figures weighted in favour of the industry appearing to discriminate against blacks people - but even then it didn’t give the figures they wanted) then you’ll see there is a massive overepresentation of BAME people in TV.

www.city.ac.uk/news/2014/aug/new-survey-reveals-level-of-ethnic-minority-representation-on-tv

On Sky there is representation of one BAME person to every 3 white people. Even when they stripped out numbers which weren’t convenient for them (for no apparent reason other than to get the figures to say what they wanted to) they could still only get the figures to show a 1:10 ratio on the channel they deemed “worst” as BAME representation. But that’s actually a pretty accurate representation of BAME ratios in wider society.

It’s simply not true to say there is a paucity of roles for BAME people in TV and film. In fact they are hugely over represented so to claim white people shouldn’t take black people’s roles because there are so few of them is simply not true. In fact that argument would apply far more to white actors than black ones.

The problem lies in the fact that when members of Asian communities committed those crimes, the victims were ignored on the basis of race and the polices prioritisation of the groomers rights above the victims because they were members of a favoured race and the victim was not.

I'm very sorry about your niece, but I don't think the response from the police would have been any different if the victims were brown. Obviously the police ignored the criminals because of their race and were lenient on them, but I think the cover up of this was due to the ethnicity of the rapists, not the ethnicities of the girls; I find it very hard to believe that the girls being brown would've triggered a better response.

When we say “class” with regard to James Bond, we surely talking about the class of the character aren’t we? Not the person who plays him. FWIW I would pay to watch Idris Elba brush his teeth but I can’t see how he would slot into the James Bond character without a fundamental rewrite of the characters origin, which personally I think would be great.

Tacolover Have you had a look at that link I put up? It’s an academic study. The authors are completely open that they wanted to find that BAME actors were under represented and even massages the figures to that end - but they STILL found that BAME actors were heavily over represented. Are you calling the reports authors liars? It’s there in black and white. Facts and figures. But you just don’t want to hear it because it contradicts your belief of stereotypes.

Have you had a look at that link I put up? It’s an academic study. The authors are completely open that they wanted to find that BAME actors were under represented and even massages the figures to that end - but they STILL found that BAME actors were heavily over represented. Are you calling the reports authors liars? It’s there in black and white. Facts and figures. But you just don’t want to hear it because it contradicts your belief of stereotypes.

I have had a look at the link. Funny how we're so over-represented yet I've seen maybe...five South Asian characters in lead roles in my 38 years on this planet? Funny how the few South Asian characters I saw were running corner shops or terrorist... a report about ethnic minorities in general doesn't mean that there is anywhere near adequate representation for the multitude of different ethnicities in the UK. A stereotypical 'sassy' black female sidekick that gets killed off in every cast is not adequate representation for many, which is the reality I've had as a Bangladeshi woman who has spent her whole life in the UK.

I'm not saying the authors are liars, I don't doubt the data. But it's easy to say that POC are over-represented when you're white, and looking at the statistics of ethnic minorities in general is not the same as what we face in reality; I remember being ecstatic a few years ago when we had Nadia, a Bangladeshi woman, on Bake Off; it's quite sad that I was so happy about seeing myself represented on TV. You can continue to post studies about ethnic minorities in general as if it's the be all end all of the debate and tell POC that their experiences are disproven by this study if you want to.

Let's assume POC are over-represented for a second. What is your point about that? Do you think there should be less than 1 BAME person to every 3 white people? Do you think there should be less people of ethnic minorities seeing themselves represented in our society?

@CarolDanvers you'd think so, wouldn't you? I was responding to a post quite far back which suggested a black actor couldn't play Bond because of class, (I'm paraphrasing) which is of course ridiculous. Unless one doesn't believe in acting. Or that black people can be upper class.

In fairness, Augusta - I cannot see that that link you’ve provided is saying what you are claiming it is.

It’s conclusion:

When you dig deep into these figures you realise the enormous gap between representation of white and BAVEM people in programmes broadcast in England and Wales. What is alarming is the number of white middle class men reporting the news and the representation of BAVEM's in drama programmes outside the soaps. The biggest problem lies in factual entertainment programming where BAVEM's are almost invisible

Also, it’s not all about the numbers...it’s about the quality. On C4, BAVEM’s are 7 times more likely to be portrayed negatively.

Today 18:01 CarolDanvers

When we say “class” with regard to James Bond, we surely talking about the class of the character aren’t we? Not the person who plays him. FWIW I would pay to watch Idris Elba brush his teeth but I can’t see how he would slot into the James Bond character without a fundamental rewrite of the characters origin, which personally I think would be great.

Idris Elba is an actor. He wouldn't be playing himself if he were to be cast as James Bond. The problem seems to be that some (maybe many) white people cannot see a black man as anything other than working class, at best.

I thought maybe I'd missed that James Bond was an aristocrat. That would explain the 'class' comments. He wasn't. He was an ex-commando spy. Not beyond the realms of possibility for a black man, even if it's unusual.

I'm not saying Idris Elba is a good fit for the role but his ethnicity shouldn't be the reason he doesn't get the job. Not all black men have a 'ghetto' or 'street' image, and in any case, acting is about playing someone else, not playing yourself.

I think that if a film is made about real people and historical events, then the audience is owed as much accuracy as is possible. That means ethnicity, not having rows of shiny capped teeth, maybe not wearing pristine costumes or having hair that looks like a timotei ad!
With fiction whrn it comes to very well known books , readers have deeply invested in the characters and again are owed accuracy as much as possible. So no short actor playing Jack Reacher etc.
For everything else, casting can be anything the film maker decides is the best choice to bring their vision to life.

Will add that it's boring seeing the same stories all the time. I'd quite like to see the stories in history of black people and women who are not Queen Elizabeth 1 and Queen Victoria!

@Augusta2012 You're one to talk about "blatant lies" when you have deliberately misinterpreted the results of that study you linked to to fit your own racist agenda.

BAME people are actually incredibly over represented in the UK media.

I...I have no words.hmm

Taco Apparently the population of the UK in 2018 is 87.2% white, which means it's 12.8% non white. That equates roughly to 8 white people to every non-white person.

Next time time you watch something on TV like a magazine show, game show, panel show, the news and weather, anything with a presenter or several presenters, or any form of advertising, or public service broadcasting, look at the proportions of white to non-white people. If representations are roughly in line with the ethnic breakdown of the UK then you'd expect to see 1 non-white person for every 8 white people.

Elsie read my last post.

@augusta2012 Using national statistics is not a fair reflection of society so don't be so pedantic.

In London 40% of the population is non-white so it's not fair to say that no more than 1% of people on tv should be black, why? That doesn't reflect where I live or where most tv programmes are set for that matter.

If one set of folk get slightly more equality, you don't get less so no need to get so hyped up for goodness sake, relax.

Agreed. It must be annoying for those that decide these things then, that instead of suffering our way through and learning whatever socially sound but historically false lesson they wish to impose upon us, that actually we just change the channel instead.

The BFI happens to think it is an issue but if it makes you feel better to bury your head in the sand then 🤷‍♀️

www.bfi.org.uk/news-opinion/news-bfi/features/black-actors-british-film-industry-statistics

"In London 40% of the population is non-white so it's not fair to say that no more than 1% of people on tv should be black, why? That doesn't reflect where I live or where most tv programmes are set for that matter. "
I don't quite get this argument. Are you saying TV across the UK should reflect London and not the UK as a whole? Yes, programmes set in London should reflect London, but others should reflect other places.

Elsiecat
'To cast him suddenly as black would be to totally ignore the culture, class national heritage and family backstory of the character.'

'Sometimes you don't even realise the gems that fall from your mouth. I don't why I clicked on this thread. I usually avoid them.'

'It's not the racism of the likes of Britain First that gets to me but the prejudice and stereotyping of respectable, professional, middle Britain. The type of people I hoped (in vain it seems) knew better.'

Charlston There were no accidental racist 'gems' that slipped out of my mouth. You just chose to wildly misinterpret what I said.

Yes, James Bond's class.

More specifically, the peculiarities of the British class system and the tropes based on it. In this case, those who have historically resided somewhere near the top of it. People born into land owning families traceable through many generations, with their 'old' money and their family 'seats' and all the historic entitlement and privilege that comes with that. That background is integral to James Bond as a character and informs everything about him. It's literary context.

There simply haven't been any black people in the history of the British upper middle classes (yet) who would fall into that category. That's why it wouldn't work. Unless you are going to completely scrap any references to his backstory and reimagine him as someone else entirely, but that would all be a bit Bobby Ewing coming out of the shower, wouldn't it? The purists wouldn't like it at all.

Idris Elba is an actor. He wouldn't be playing himself if he were to be cast as James Bond. The problem seems to be that some (maybe many) white people cannot see a black man as anything other than working class, at best

That is absolutely NOT where I was coming from at all.

"if 'class' is really a factor in casting Bond..."

Actors can act different classes so that's not an issue at all.
They could act different skin colours were it not for the fact that has become unacceptable.
I don't think most can act a different sex and most performances where women portray male characters, from Shakespeare plays for example, are intended to be thought provoking rather than 'realistic'.

I thought maybe I'd missed that James Bond was an aristocrat. That would explain the 'class' comments. He wasn't. He was an ex-commando spy. Not beyond the realms of possibility for a black man, even if it's unusual.

Not an aristocrat, no. But an upper middle class boy born to a Scottish father and a Swiss mother. Grew up in a castle in the Scottish Highlands when he wasn't being educated at Eton (expelled) then Fettes.

It's difficult to spin that as the background of a black man. A black man of any class. Whether he is 'street' or 'ghetto' or not, doesn't really come into it.

@Gwenhwyfar it was just to show @augusta2012 that national statistics aren't useful in this context. They were using them to decide how much representation PoC should get on tv, which I happen to think, is bollocks.

With you OP. It’s all a bit daft.

The size of the UK is minute compared to the rest of the world, yet people get hung up about making sure everyone is represented.

India gets on with Bollywood full of Asian people.

Japan gets on with their films full of Japanese people.

As do Italy, Spain and Germany (whenever I see foreign TV when I’m twiddling my thumbs in my hotel room in Greece).

And so on.....

Why are the British so ridiculous about this?

If I watch a film about Elizabeth I, I’m not going to expect as Asian surely?

Do other countries carry on like this or just us? Crackers!