To think that racial diversity in film casting has gone slightly bonkers...

[AngeloMysterioso]

When you have an Asian actress playing Bess of Hardwick?

I just can’t see why anyone thought it was appropriate to have such a prominent woman in English history being played by somebody who is Chinese- can you imagine the outcry if an important black woman was being played in a film by someone who isn’t black, or indeed a significant Asian character being played by a white woman? There’d be uproar, and rightly so. And yet, in the new Mary Queen of Scots film we have a white Englishwoman being played by Gemma Chan.

This Chinese author/blogger said pretty much the same thing, pointing out that when Ed Skrein was cast as a fictional Japanese character in Hellboy the public response was so furious that he ended up quitting. And Bess of Hardwick isn’t even a fictional character, she was a very real woman, an ancestor of our current Queen, whose life and legacy are quite remarkable.

I don’t want anyone to think that there is any racism behind this post at all. I think Gemma Chan is a fantastic actress, but I don’t know, there’s just something about it that reeks of tokenism.

Especially as the discussion, interesting though it is, would appear to concern public history (historians communicating their research to wider audience beyond the academy) in factual programming, not dramas as is being discussed on this thread.

If drama depicts one version of reality which contradicts the reality depicted in documentary, of course there’s a potential to confuse the viewer. Especially as dramas get far bigger audiences than documentary.

As I was saying upthread, it’s a shame drama writers cant take inspiration from historical documentary and public history, which is doing well now at bringing micro histories and hidden life stories to the screen. If they did, that would also do a lot to tackle the paicity of roles for Actors of colour.

Paucity*

FunkyKingston you said: "f you think you're learning history through period dramas then you've probably got bigger problems than Gemma Chan's ethnic origins."
I have been wondering for a while how much Downton Abbey and similar period dramas have contributed to the Brexit vote, you know the greatness of the Empire and all that. I do think a lot of people take "historical" TV shows at face values, I probably get carried away myself. It's more about feelings than reason.

@MemoriesOfAnotherFuture one of the real thrills of Hamilton is seeing so many PoC on stage at one time playing leading roles. It took two viewings for me to actually work that out though - what was 'different' - I'd got to know the soundtrack pretty well before I went but of course I didn't 'see' it until I 'saw' it.

*1. BAME actors are underrepresented by a long way in the acting industry. There aren't enough parts for BAME actors - particularly in period pieces - and this is a way to redress that balance.

1. Because white is the "default", most scripts, BAME characters' ethnicity tends to be a vital part of their characterisation, whether fictional or historical (think MLK, Rosa Parks, Othello etc). Think of Shakespeare - Hamlet isn't racially coded in any way, so an actor of any ethnicity could play him (though surprise surprise we still have a lot more white Hamlets).*

But this is a ridiculously one-sided view. No, being white is not integral to Hamlet’s character - but NOT being white would have been integral to the character of a 16th Century Danish monarch. Ignoring the impact this would have made in order to give the part to a non-white actor IS whitewashing.

@CoughLaughFart I'm guessing you haven't seen many productions of Hamlet because they're really not all set in 16th century Denmark any more... Colour-blind casting is pretty commonplace in theatre these days (though I'd like to see more of it) and has given BAME actors fantastic opportunities they would otherwise be denied. Are you genuinely saying no BAME actors should ever play Hamlet? Or King Lear? Or Macbeth? They have to stick to Othello and be grateful? And no non-white drama companies can ever stage Shakespeare? Come on.

Allowing BAME actors the same opportunities enjoyed by white actors is not "white-washing". Jesus Christ.

I think that it's a shame that instead of arguing about why Idris Elba can't play Bond, that should be arguing why someone can't come up with a whole new character to make movies about.

I have noticed a big increase in roles going to non-white actors, but we really can't suggest that there is diversity until we start seeing a lot more of all different types of people represented. One show I know has a black lead, white sidekick/love interest and Indian best friend. But not one character with a disability. We need to see characters with disabilities, not as the defining part of their character, but just because that is part of their lives.

@augusta2012 Using national statistics is not a fair reflection of society so don't be so pedantic.

In London 40% of the population is non-white so it's not fair to say that no more than 1% of people on tv should be black, why? That doesn't reflect where I live or where most tv programmes are set for that matter.

So basically what you’re saying is that all TV should reflect the races by using the highest possible BAME figures. There might be 40% BAME population in London, but what about programmes set in the countryside of Northern Ireland or the Yorkshire Dales?

TV companies are national entities. It makes sense for them to use national statistics as their benchmark.

I'm very sorry about your niece, but I don't think the response from the police would have been any different if the victims were brown.

Then you don’t actually know anything about it at all do you? There is absolutely no evidence that crimes against girls who were not white were ignored if they reported sex crimes.

Go away and read the Casey and Jay reports. Yes, I know lefties fall over themselves to try and pretend it was nothing to do with race, but unfortunately two reports by very well respected women have found that they were ignored very much because of race.

1. BAME actors are underrepresented by a long way in the acting industry. There aren't enough parts for BAME actors - particularly in period pieces

The problem with writing parts for BAME actors in even reasonably historically accurate period pieces is that they are going to be very limited in their scope, in order to reflect what was going on in whichever specific country the piece was set it, at that specific time. That's the problem with history - it's kind of fixed.

peach I agree with you about Shakespearean theatre; it's not unusual at all for each production to be given a modern spin or twist, set somewhere other than Elizabethan England or Italy and reimagined to keep it fresh. This happens in Film as well, but less often.

The point is that in order for it to work, the whole production needs to be reimagined in a way that is not and doesn't attempt to be historically accurate. You can't just throw a BAME actor into an otherwise accurate period piece if that role was intended to depict a white person and expect it to work without the audience having to suspend belief about certain things.

Well it's a little different because ethnic minorities are massively under-represented in movies.

Are they though? Surely the very nature of being in a minority means they won't be represented in anywhere near as many numbers as the majority. In Hollywood I might agree with you - I can think of several big box office stars who are black and male, but very few who are black and female.

But in British film and TV I would strongly argue that you are wrong. Given how many movies have an historical context I think you have to allow for the fact that some films will be set in places and times where there would have been few ethnic minority people around. In contemporary pieces I think BAME members of British society are extremely well represented and quite possibly over represented, if we are really going to count.

1. BAME actors are underrepresented by a long way in the acting industry. There aren't enough parts for BAME actors - particularly in period pieces

Sorry for multiple posting, but I also want to say about this. A part doesn't have to be written specifically for a non-white person in order to be taken by a non-white person. If there is no contextual backdrop or relevance to being from a specific race or culture then it really doesn't matter who plays the part. It would be nice to see more BAME people in roles where their race, religion or cultural background is entirely irrelevant and doesn't feature in the storyline AT ALL. We are getting there, but not quite there yet.

I think that is far more important than being seen to fulfil or over-fulfil quotas.

@CoughLaughFart I'm guessing you haven't seen many productions of Hamlet because they're really not all set in 16th century Denmark any more...

Thank you, I’ll make a note of that. ‘Not all productions of Hamlet are set in 16th Century Denmark’. Thank you so much for blessing me with your superior knowledge (complete with obligatory face, just in case I’m too stupid to get your sarcasm).

The point I’m making is that Hamlet as a black man, as a woman, in 21st Century New York or whatever is a deliberate change to the setting/story. It’s actively experimental and not an attempt at accuracy. A real-life Elizabethan noblewoman being played by a non-white actress (which is what this post was actually about) in an otherwise straight-up period piece is very different.

I agree Cough

A few years ago, my niece went to see a production of A Christmas Carol, Ebeneezer was played by a black man. She is married to a black man herself, but she said it just didn't seem authentic. She said he was a brilliant actor, but it just spoiled it for her.

It made me think, about Idris Elba as Bond, I could see him making a great Bond, we live in a multicultural society and a black Bond is believable to me. A black Scrooge though? I find that hard to grasp as well.

It's like the blonde haired, blue eyed Christ. No, it doesn't sit right now I'm old enough to think about it, he would have an olive complexion, dark hair and eyes. It makes no sense for him to be portrayed otherwise.

Oh ffs there was an outcry when Ed Skrein was cast as an Asian character because people who aren't white are vastly underrepresented on tv and when they are shown, its to fit a stereotype so they very rarely get to be the hero or the love interest. This is particularly an issue for Asian men who are almost always stuck playing the same worn out character for laughs.

Come back and complain when you can't remember the last time you saw a white person save the day or be someone's object of desire in a movie and I'll agree with you.

And before anyone tells me representation doesn't matter, 90% of the movies and tv shows my dh watches are about a good looking white guy in his 30s who does something heroic. Ie dh's dream version of himself. Every single time I mention this to him in passing, he tells me that he also likes Will Smith.
Every. Fucking. Time.
Completely missing the point that if you're reaching for the same guy every time, you're proving my point!

And before anyone comments yes I do spent a lot of Saturday nights watching shit action films while unsuccessfully trying to force some sort of meaningful conversation out of dh. It's exciting stuff!

Like my points about adverts above at the end of the day people will watch what they can get into and feel part of and whilst some adverts or period dramas or plays do not care if they make money and want to make their points, that is not the case for most of them. So I presume an element of market forces applies. I don't watch Japanese television so don't know how often they cast British or African actors but in most countries I presume the people are used are those that help keep numbers of viewers/theatre goers up.

I suppose North Korea is an exception although even there and even though you might be killed or sent to a prison camp some people do watch South Korean soap operas etc on their mobiles etc.

The only issue for me is if it defies credulity and I cannot get into a show for that reason. i can often tolerate it. Eg in Vera, a very good detective series from my area - Northumberland - they have a very unlikely number of non white actors in it but the story line is good enough to make you just momentarily think - ouch, that's unlikely, why stuff this PC stuff down my throat - and then you just carry on watching.

It's like the blonde haired, blue eyed Christ. No, it doesn't sit right now I'm old enough to think about it, he would have an olive complexion, dark hair and eyes. It makes no sense for him to be portrayed otherwise.*

As I said earlier in the thread, people all around the world create art of Jesus which looks like them so they can identify with him. In Brazil it is Cristo Negro. Nobody complains about that, but he wasn’t black either. We’re not unique, but we’re the only ones who are berated for it.

Just as an aside, Jesus was Jewish. Jewish people don’t necessarily have dark hair and olive skin. Many are red heads with pale complexions.

BAME people in roles where their race, religion or cultural background is entirely irrelevant and doesn't feature in the storyline AT ALL.

This would be the ideal.

Re the link I posted earlier and someone accused me of lying, I didn’t. The report had a comment at the end from one of the authors saying he thought there should be more BAME roles and in his opinion BAME actors were over represented. But his opinion is clearly not that BAME actors should appear in proportions which mirror the general population, he wants them to be more or less equal in numbers to white people even though that would harm white actors chances of getting roles. I didn’t lie, the numbers are still the same, the “worst” channel for black characters just matched the population numbers (1:10) and other channels like Sky had huge over representation of 1:3.

Mary Queen of Scott's mother Mary of Guiese was French maybe that was pp meant? I remember seeing Sophie Okenedo play Nancy in Oliver Twist a few years ago. She was brilliant and yes, there is every possibility that Nancy could have been black.

It is complex to ensure media reflects local populations as they var. If the population is 97% white in Northumberland or 63% not white where I live in London and then the general UK statistic of 82% white in the UK. Ireland is 92% white.

Media is seen worldwide now which is a huge difference from the old days. I think the world is about 12% white.

The bottom line is if adverts work which show a lot of people who are not white in countries where the vast majority of people are white then advertisers will use them - they do what will sell products.

I have more of a problem with the fact that we are not producing as many working class actors etc. It seems that more and more actors and actresses seem to come from private/public school education such as Benedict Cumberbatch, Tom Hildeston etc. Although I don't deny they are good actors, I would love to see a broader spectrum of class represented in the acting profession.

I think the pool of actors used is far too small across the board. Why get an actor to learn a totally different accent rather than using a local actor? and the lack of disabled parts compared to reality. I have seen a few programs it happening in, but no films in which a person in a wheelchair or with a diasability is just that, rather than a plot point.

And as for Eastenders. East London and a couple of token 'ethnic' families?

And yes very good point Freewheelin. The nepotism and bias towards private school kids is a disgrace. Do you think somebody like Tom Courtenay or Peter Postlethwaite would come through now? it all seems to be a procession of 'Lilys' via girls school and period drama.

Have to totally agree with comments about public school actors also. The list is endless. Or actors who started young with parents somehow connected to the industry. Or people whose parents have name recognition getting prestige crew jobs. The era when working class actors could break through is fading because the doors are closing