To be shocked that Mn has been branded a “hotbed of transphobia”

[Badmoonsarising]

BY Vice msgazine no less!

broadly.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/a3mn9k/mumsnet-uk-mom-forum-terf-transphobia-feminism

DonkeyHotel, I meant the bit where you said 'transphobes' (which I don't think you've defined) are losing the legal and cultural argument. That's the bit I disagree with.

If the Tories remain in power for the foreseeable future, I confidently expect them to put reform of the Gender Recognition Act on the back burner in the hope that it all goes away. I have this on the authority of my MP (Labour) with whom I've discussed this issue.

If Labour were by some miracle to win a general election and try to push the GRA reforms through, I think it would turn out to be very unpopular once ordinary people grasp what it means. At present most people are very unclear about how this is different from gay rights and they assume transgender means much the same as transsexual, i.e. people who've had surgery and are taking hormones. The true picture is very different.

Bittermints, about 60 - 70% of transsexual women with a GRC have had surgery. It is estimated about 10% of the ones who will be allowed a GRC via self ID would, and boob jobs would likely be more prevalent than the more drastic surgery as we keep reading about alleged lady penis's in apparent trans lesbian relationships, which is further absurdity.

This is modern transgenderism.

Lesbians have a duty to have sex with men if they say they are women.

A duty?

This is modern transgenderism.

Women, needing an abortion is a privilege that you have over transwomen.

A priviledge?

RedToothBrush sorry to single you out but you mentioned something that I did earlier: phobia. It’s not as simple as being afraid of is it? Homophobia and xenophobia are not just fears of homosexual people/immigrants but are more akin to racism or sexism.

I’m actually fairly gender critical myself but I don’t think that the “phobia” ending is the way to convince people of a particular argument.

In my opinion there's trans people and supporters with extreme views and on the other side there's feminists with extreme views and the rest of us in the middle want everyone to get along without being a dickhead about it.

I think the threads on here won't do what people want it to. They make mumsnet a laughing stock and people more likely to support trans rights.

(I don't mean all trans people and feminists have extreme views, I was just talking about the ones who do!)

In my opinion there's trans people and supporters with extreme views and on the other side there's feminists with extreme views and the rest of us in the middle want everyone to get along without being a dickhead about it.

Do you genuinely think not wanting rapists in female prisons is an extreme position?

Nerrsnerr TRAs with extreme views tell women they should be raped and killed, try to get them sacked from their jobs.
Feminists with extreme views try to hold meeting with other feminists to talk about the issues.
Exactly the same isn’t it?

Sackrifice, what those tweets and the many others you could post show is why removing all the gatekeeping that presently assesses every case before granting extraordinary rights such as changing legal sex would be dangerous. But that is what self ID proposes.

It is always a bit of a concern when those who have hone through the gatekeeping are calling for it to remain whereas the ones calling for its total dismantling are the ones who presently are unwilling to go through it.

You have to suspect an ulterior motive if they think it is too hard (aka they fear they would not pass).

Doing something this drastic should be hard not as easy as paying your gas bill.

Do you genuinely think not wanting rapists in female prisons is an extreme position?

No I don't, but that's not the only thing discussed on here. There will be many trans people who don't want that as well but because of all the shouting from both sides not wanting to get involved. There cannot be sensible debate about it because both sides shout each other down.

There have been awful threads on here like the one I mentioned upthread about the trans woman missing from a psychiatric hospital. She wasn't a criminal, just unwell but posters still had a go because she was trans (it wasn't posted to try and find her it was posted on the feminist boards because she was trans). That's extreme in my opinion.

If you feel it's an extreme view for me to say, as a lesbian, I have a legal right to be homosexual, choose sexual partners because of their biology and that it's utterly appalling that it's now ok to say lesbian women have a 'duty' to offer sex to male bodied people who want it, then this society is in a hell of a lot of trouble. On that reason alone. But that reason isn't alone, there are multiple other major and equally appalling aspects to this ideology. And it requires people to be loud, persistent, angry, and to be demanding Wait a Fucking Moment.

Mumsnet is a hotbed of transphobia. Some posts on the subject are insightful and important, some posters do genuinely post out of concern for woman.
Some, however are disgusting transphobia plain and simple.
The issue lies where those that were once only concerned about woman, became embedded in a vendetta against transgender people in all forms. A lot of posts on trans people have no bearing on ‘the fight against woman’ and while you continue to post them and comment on them, you become transphobic.

Early am I transphobic by being homosexual?

NerrSnerr, there are some extreme posters on both sides, but most are somewhere in the middle looking for a way that works which protects rights rather than takes them away.

There is little you can do to change the minds of those who are very firmly in one direction or the other. Only respect their right to say these things and try to reply to them with facts rather than insults.

I can do that in here as a transsexual despite reading such posts and on Twitter where trans activists are as dismissive of my views because they disagree with their mantra.

Extremes rarely win arguments no matter how loud they shout as common sense and a viable solution appeals to many on both sides of the divide.

I think that is where this will head as the government are not (that!) stupid and have seen the response to these plans.

There have been awful threads on here like the one I mentioned upthread about the trans woman missing from a psychiatric hospital. She wasn't a criminal, just unwell but posters still had a go because she was trans (it wasn't posted to try and find her it was posted on the feminist boards because she was trans). That's extreme in my opinion.

I am on there every day, i have no idea what thread you are talking about. Can you link to it?

There cannot be sensible debate about it because both sides shout each other down.

Women wanting to debate this are physically abused, harassed, get threats, their office doors pissed on, doxxed, emails to their employers, venues get hounded, women get masked men baraccading their way into a venue.

Women have never done this to TRAs and they are rtold that even having an opinion is transphobic.

There is not anywhere near the same 'shouting down' - in fact they are asked to come and state their case as all the women get is more abuse.

I think that the use of phobia as a descriptor for hatred of homosexuals, immigrants and trans people isn't really the best in general on a lingustic level as it doesn't convey the sense of prejudice, just a fear. A phobia on the other hand conveys an irrationality of thought, rather than pure ignorance. Plus geniune phobias are often anxiety disorders - as in mental health issues - so we have a situation where hatred and ignorance are conflated directly with anxiety disorders in a manner which you could argue is unhelpful to the stigma of mental health.

Phobias, as I say based on my own experience, also convey this concept of irrationality of thought and this allows concerns based on life experience to be more easily dismissed, rather than explored to get to the heart of that reality of experience which might be genuinely traumatic and therefore completely understandable and actually very rational rather than purely irrational.

Homophobia and xenophobia are problematic too, but the issue of the role of women with regard to transphobia is particularly difficult. The problem with transphobia as a term, is that you have this intersection of the history of women dismissed as hysterical, the idea of irrationality of thought and pure ignorance and hatred all being effectively conflated within the bare lingustics.

It might seem like picking at words, but this does matter unfortunately. On several levels.

It allows for the manipulation of the term in political ways and doesn't help the definition of the term by making the definition and consensus on what we mean by transphobia more difficult.

I hope that makes sense.

I am on there every day, i have no idea what thread you are talking about. Can you link to it?

No, because quite rightly it was deleted.

No, because quite rightly it was deleted

So the system of deleting transphobia works then. Cool.

Knicknackpaddyflak

Posts like yours are why people see the mumsnet feminism board as an echo chamber.

Nobody in the huge majority middle ground thinks that "it's now ok to say lesbian women have a 'duty' to offer sex to male bodied people who want it" or thinks that it's transphobic to tell someone who says that that they're wrong.

If you only debate, respond to and engage with the extremists, then you lose sight of the fact that they represent a tiny minority.

Your post starts "If you feel it's an extreme view for me to say..." but nobody here has said that's an extreme view.

Knicknackpaddyflak Not sure if that’s a genuine question or if you’re being goady but posts like yours are part of the problem. You’ve taken the views of some TRA to create a faux meaning behind the word ‘transphobia’
It has become that people can say what they like about trans people because who cares if people think we’re transphobic because so and so thinks that not sucking a lady dick is transphobic.
What is transphobic is calling all trans woman ‘men with a fetish’ , taking the piss out of transgender rememberance days, calling fully transitioned trans woman ‘men’, refusing to acknowledge gender dysphoria, painting transwoman as criminals by using false data, calling for forced sterilisation of trans people, posting about anything to do with a transwoman, even if it’s nothing to do with woman as a class so that you can all jump on and slate them.
Anyone that refuses to acknowledge that genuine transphobic language and tendencies exist on this forum are probably part of the problem.

What a cross post BruegeITheEIder

You’ve taken the views of some TRA to create a faux meaning behind the word ‘transphobia’
It has become that people can say what they like about trans people because who cares if people think we’re transphobic because so and so thinks that not sucking a lady dick is transphobic.

That's what I wanted to say but couldn't word it so well!

@Bittermints I meant it broadly, in the sense that trans rights are thankfully becoming a reality, as with the examples on the Wikipedia page. But, actually, having a discussion with you has been a joy so far (I really mean that, not in any way snidely) as it's an example of two people who may disagree but are being respectful and choosing facts to support the opinions they instinctively gravitate towards (because isn't that what we all do as humans: feel something instinctively, and then search for facts that support our instincts?) I despair when someone posts a comment snippet from the internet and makes the sweeping statement that it's the face of modern transgenderism, when it's not; that does a huge disservice to the myriad viewpoints that make up the trans community and its allies. It's like saying that the belief that if you kill an infidel you'll receive virgins in heaven is the face of modern Islam, because some dude may have said it on a forum.

Women being afraid that we or other women might be obligated to share intimate spaces with penis people isn't irrational. It's the precise opposite.