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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be angry and feel the Scottish Gov’s Twitter header is an attack on women?

688 replies

Badmoonsarising · 27/11/2018 16:21

i’d like them to clarify exactly what their definition of “transphobic” is because it seems to have become a slur these days often aimed at anyone but mostly women who are critical of or question in any way the recent upsurge of identity politics. I just feel they’re doing a knee jerk, ignorant, unnecessary huge fuck you to women.

To be angry and feel the Scottish Gov’s Twitter header is an attack on women?
OP posts:
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7
RatRolyPoly · 05/12/2018 15:32

You complain when your asked to define how you use the word woman, but without definitions, words are just gibberish.

Nope, I don't complain, I've defined it over and over.

You don't like my definition, even though it's just as accurate and descriptive as anything else in the dictionary, that well-known home of definitions.

The fact is, it doesn't even matter whether you think the word "woman" includes trans women or not; some posters try desperately to make it matter by saying we can't possibly define the group who share biology without the purity of the word woman; but the truth is WE CAN! It doesn't matter!

It literally drives me bonkers. ACTUALLY bonkers.

VerbeenaBeeks · 05/12/2018 15:33

Burble burble burble "trans women are women!" Burble burble

Yay (even though it's obviously said as a dig to everyone else who don't have a problem with transwomen is only doing a burble burble, I'll go with yay lol)

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 05/12/2018 15:36

I know you didnt eresh

And I did spot verbeenas apology...but i don't remember ever seeing the bolding issue with any poster

Actually i think ive seen people tell posters to bold ...but not not to bold Grin

VerbeenaBeeks · 05/12/2018 15:37

Nope, I don't complain, I've defined it over and over. You don't like my definition

Exactly, same here! It's only gibberish to people who refuse to see outside of their own tunnel.
People were like "why won't you answer and define?" at the beginning of the thread. "Why are you saying you are only your biology?"

THIS. THIS is why. It is utterly, totally, bonkers as you say.
You have to say women are their biology only.Otherwise it's derp try again and patronising cobblers.

RatRolyPoly · 05/12/2018 15:43

Gender is socially constructed. It varies across time and geography. It has no biological components. It is not found in any other species.

Now I'm in complete agreement that most gender stereotypes are externally imposed, and I'd like to see them fuck off to the far side of fuck. But I'm afraid you are once again being overly simplistic and reductionist to say definitively that there is no biological component.

You're also 100% wrong that it isn't found in any other species.

www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2755553/

Personally I'm open to the idea that (broadly speaking) men and women may have observable differences. What I try and focus on though is the fact that I think it is damaging and limits BOTH males and females to place the EXPECTATION of those differences on individual boys and girls. There is a huge amount of overlap between the sexes, and whilst I may be a "typical" woman in some respects, I should not be expected to be - or LIMITED to being - typical in others.

RatRolyPoly · 05/12/2018 15:45

It's nutty Verbeena. I don't know why it isn't obvious that saying only biology matters is exactly the kind of fringe extremist nonsense as biology doesn't matter AT ALL, which I gather you get on the other faaaar side of this argument.

One is black, the other's white, and neither bears any relation whatsoever to reality!!

RatRolyPoly · 05/12/2018 15:46

*the SAME kind of... Bloody typing again!

VerbeenaBeeks · 05/12/2018 15:48

don't know why it isn't obvious that saying only biology matters is exactly the kind of fringe extremist nonsense as biology doesn't matter AT ALL, which I gather you get on the other faaaar side of this argument

Exactly, which is what I was saying upthread, that BOTH sides of extremism isn't good, but that got ignored and my words picked at instead.
It is SO clear but if you're stuck in the middle of extremism it must be hard to see if you're guilty of doing it yourself Confused

Ereshkigal · 05/12/2018 16:26

You don't like my definition, even though it's just as accurate and descriptive as anything else in the dictionary, that well-known home of definitions.

It really is not. It is entirely circular, as has been pointed out to you many times. See my earlier example for why words need to mean things.

And imagine someone is allergic to dogs. And you say, I don't have a dog, I have a cat. You're allergic to dogs, that's fine, because I don't have one. But what you are not telling them is that you have the animal that 99% of the population call a dog.

Language only works when people understand what words mean.

Ereshkigal · 05/12/2018 16:33

Personally I'm open to the idea that (broadly speaking) men and women may have observable differences.

Given that it's fucking obvious, that's really quite a breathtaking statement. You're "open to the idea" Grin

If men and women aren't different, what do you possibly think MTF trans people are identifying with? The special gender essence?

RatRolyPoly · 05/12/2018 16:38

It is entirely circular, as has been pointed out to you many times

It's no more circular than many other dictionary definitions, as I have actually demonstrated many times.

You aren't superior to me on this Eresh, you aren't the decider of unreasonable circularity, you don't "point things out to me" that somehow I have failed to spot.

You want it to be too circular to be acceptable. You want it to fall short of the standard required of a dictionary definition. But you can't ever demonstrate that it does, because if you actually hold it up in comparison to other word definitions (such as "literally", "adult" or "sandwich") it is just as useful and descriptive.

So until you wake up one morning with some actual words with which to refute this, I'm afraid the fact you think you're pointing out something to me is always going to fail to move me.

And imagine someone is allergic to dogs. And you say, I don't have a dog, I have a cat. You're allergic to dogs, that's fine, because I don't have one. But what you are not telling them is that you have the animal that 99% of the population call a dog.

...and if one day dog comes to be used by a large proportion of the population to mean housepets in general - so dogs AND cats - however "wrong" that may be, the dictionary will be updated to reflect that. And we'll find a new way to specify just those pets that were once the only breed described as dogs. That's how words evolve!

And actually it makes more sense for "woman" to evolve as a word than "dog", because when you're talking about the biology generally associated with being a woman "female" is the preferred term. "Woman" more often is used in a social context. But that's by the by because this whole derail is totally unnecessary.

Datun · 05/12/2018 16:41

Trans women are women because the world is complex.

Nope. You like it to be complex. Your word salads and linguistic cul-de-sacs are, I'm sure, highly fulfilling to you. They're tedious to me. Wading through all that crap, to try and find a sentence that indicates an opinion is hard work.

Language should be used to communicate effectively. You do not communicate effectively. Quite the opposite.

Biological sex categories are not complicated. Again, the opposite. They're very simple.

Deciding that one's 'sense of self', should constitute a biological category makes no sense. It's untenable as a concept.

Not 'complex'.

BlytheSpiritsSpirit · 05/12/2018 16:41

Is the word "man" being subject to the same evolution? I haven't noticed.

RatRolyPoly · 05/12/2018 16:42

Personally I'm open to the idea that (broadly speaking) men and women may have observable differences.

Given that it's fucking obvious, that's really quite a breathtaking statement. You're "open to the idea"

I used to think you were just unpleasant Eresh, but I'm starting to think you're really not very bright. I think it's quite obvious in the context of socially constructed gender I was talking about there being broadly observable "gender" differences between males and females that are not socially imposed.

If men and women aren't different, what do you possibly think MTF trans people are identifying with? The special gender essence?

You're all kinds of confused I think Eresh.

Datun · 05/12/2018 16:44

Rat

You're never going to be able to sustain

"You aren't superior to me on this Eresh,"

If yout backing it up by

...and if one day dog comes to be used by a large proportion of the population to mean housepets in general - so dogs AND cats - however "wrong" that may be, the dictionary will be updated to reflect that. And we'll find a new way to specify just those pets that were once the only breed described as dogs.

Deciding that you can start using a word, that no one else is using, on the basis that everyone else is using it!

RatRolyPoly · 05/12/2018 16:49

Is the word "man" being subject to the same evolution? I haven't noticed.

Um, yeah, it includes trans men.

Language should be used to communicate effectively. You do not communicate effectively. Quite the opposite.

You're very funny Datun. If you can't find an opinion in my writing I wonder why in fact you argue with me - for all you know, we agree!

Language should be used to communicate effectively. You cannot communicate or understand the experience of trans people. You cannot find the words, the empathy or the imagination. Yours is the failure of language. At least I am using it to reflect what we know to be true - that trans people exist and are as sure as you or I am that they are what they say they are.

I am not trying to make the people fit the words, I am finding the words to describe the people.

THAT is the purpose of language.

Biological sex categories are not complicated. Again, the opposite. They're very simple.

Biological sex categories are only very very simple when you point blank refuse to acknowledge intersex, supposedly as some charitable act, but actually because your simplistic presentation doesn't hold water if you do.

But even that doesn't matter. Because most of the things we're talking about here are not exclusively dependent on a particular biology. So whether or not sex categories are simple is neither here nor there, because actually when I'm weeing in a cubicle it's more important that I look like I'm in the right room than if I have a vagina in my pants or a pair of testicles!

RatRolyPoly · 05/12/2018 16:51

Deciding that you can start using a word, that no one else is using, on the basis that everyone else is using it!

In case you hadn't noticed I'm not out here on my own in saying the word "women" can include trans women.

BubonicWoman · 05/12/2018 16:51

There is no definition of woman that is not biological that could include all women
All women are individuals with their own thoughts and personalities. We only have our biology in common
A man cannot feel like a woman because he has no idea how women feel. Nobody knows how another person feels. He can only feel like he imagines a woman feels
Why are you so keen to insist males can be women?

Ereshkigal · 05/12/2018 16:52

used to think you were just unpleasant Eresh, but I'm starting to think you're really not very bright.

lol the feeling is entirely mutual I assure you. Have you got any concrete coherent refutation other than pomo special gender essence I am what I say what I am nonsense?

Like scientific evidence to back up your innate gender identity faith belief?

A woman is an adult human female. Not any old shit you write on the back of a fag packet on the bus.

BlytheSpiritsSpirit · 05/12/2018 16:58

Are we required to use mxn to be inclusive of transmen now?

RatRolyPoly · 05/12/2018 16:58

Like scientific evidence to back up your innate gender identity faith belief?

Do you know how we know when something exists? You know, how we know atoms exist, how we know forces exist, all that good sciencey stuff you may remember from school?

First of we observe it. Like, if there were millions of people worldwide through the ages who presented as having a gender identity... we would say that exists.

And if we can't see it, like forces, how do we say they exists? We observe the effects they have on the things around them; things that would not do the things they do were it not for that force. Like alllll the millions of trans people worldwide subjecting themselves to often massive hardship, propelled by one uniting factor; their gender identity.

I mean seriously, this is basic observable stuff. You don't need a fucking study to open you eyes and SEE.

Anyway, I have to be out for today, you lot are predictably bringing me to despair. But at least it's the same old names, so I need only despair over a few of my fellow humans.

VerbeenaBeeks · 05/12/2018 16:59

A woman is an adult human female.

And NOBODY is disputing that. Just some of us don't reduce us all to just body parts.

Hyppolyta · 05/12/2018 17:00

Id give them the word woman and call us females but the fuckers still wouldnt have it.
Because intersex.

Rat and Verbeena humans come in two types.
Those with XX chromosomes (or a variant)
Those with XY (or a variant)

Will you allow us with XX any word to distinguish ourselves from those with XY? Or is doing that transphobic?

VerbeenaBeeks · 05/12/2018 17:01

But at least it's the same old names, so I need only despair over a few of my fellow humans

I noticed that, it's the same extremist couple. Most of MN is moderate and no transphobia, but there's definitely extremism from a small handful.
Which is what gives it a bad name.

Hyppolyta · 05/12/2018 17:03

Bloody hell verbeena you get it!!

Yes, whether you are a woman or man is just body parts (and DNA).

Just like whether you are blonde is just your hair.

Thats it. It says nothing at all about you as a person, or your thoughts, feelings or capabilities. It isnt a judgement, acheivement, limitation or constriction.

Its just biology.