To think we need a congestion charge in every major city?

[impossiblecat]

The traffic is getting insane.

It's dangerous and bad for everyone's health.

With the exception of the disabled and people who live within the limits of said congestion zone, obviously.

I'd have all money raised ploughed into public transport.

In Manchester the actual city centre itself is not gridlocked, its the surrounding roads - M60 at Stockport, M60 / M62 Leeds, M60 Bolton junction, Princess Parkway, Mancunican Way, A57, A54, M56 J7 etc.

A lot of it is school travel as well - the traffic improves massively when it's half term or summer holidays. A CC won't alleviate these roads on the outskirts so what's the point other than being another cost to get to work?

Infrastructure is needed to get park and ride / park and walk functionality in place. Manchester itself needs a massive bypass so traffic heading to Leeds stays off the M60 as that's the only way if you're heading towards Leeds from the west of Manchester. Controversial, but better to have moving traffic than it standing still and polluting the roads people live next to.

A fast train between Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, York and Newcastle would be fantastic. You could create big park and ride stops in between to encourage people to drive to those and do the rest by train.

What's clear to me is that schemes to price people completely from driving don't work. Not everyone wants to or can cycle 8 miles a day. We need to build solutions for the way people want to commute which will involve the car. Let's aim for part car / part public transport and some issues will be resolved.

Also - cultural shift to let more office workers WFH (where possible) which could take hundreds if not thousands of commuters off the roads daily.

Not everyone wants to or can cycle 8 miles a day.

Not even had a weather warning today (there is tomorrow), and bins are all over the road. Pity the poor sod with no choice but to cycle that.

Also - cultural shift to let more office workers WFH (where possible) which could take hundreds if not thousands of commuters off the roads daily.

I wouldn't hold your breath - I've been waiting 30 years and it's still nowhere near as common as it could be. And from recent interviews it's getting rarer ....

My dh’s company encourage WFH and there is a rota for parking spaces as there aren’t enough.The council want £80 per space per year for companies to have extra spaces and his company is on the outskirts. Workers in his area have to park in the park and ride whuch stuffs it up for those trying to get to the centre. I’m guessing nobody cares about those on the outskirts, pollution there must be just as bad. Crap infrastructure and greedy councils/ bus companies stop any improvement.

That and the constant focus on London as regards investment.

@adaline

You earn more than me and I'm quite comfortable. That's not poverty.

Your local city, Carlisle? I never suggested a congestion charge there. The Lake District could do with a tourist tax of £1 per person per day.

Just because a person doesn't want to, or can't, walk, cycle or catch public transport does not mean that they have a right to pollute the air and clog up the roads for the lowest possible price.

You earn more than me and I'm quite comfortable. That's not poverty.

I never claimed I live in poverty. You stated 16k as a household was poverty, I stated we earned double that (16k each) and we still can't afford to live in our closest city (Lancaster, thanks to the lack of decent roads from here to Carlisle).

I know you never suggested a congestion charge in Carlisle, but I'm trying to make the point that living rurally does not mean you have enough money to afford the congestion charge. That applies regardless of where that city happens to be! I'm saying that people live rurally because it's often too expensive live in the city where they work. As there's no public transport from lots of villages/small towns to those cities, they have no choice but to drive!

You seem to be spectacularly missing the point. Rural poverty exists all over the country. It's not something that only exists in inner city boroughs. DH and I are certainly not poor but we still couldn't afford to move to the city, nor could we afford to pay a congestion charge (or for public transport 5 days a week x 2) and we would be in the same situation if we lived outside of Leeds or Manchester!

does not mean that they have a right to pollute the air and clog up the roads for the lowest possible price.

Then how do you suggest people who live rurally get anywhere? Or should we all move to the cities - and live where? Using what amenities?

Um it’s a shed load more than one and they do have the right. The gov needs their taxes from working and they need to feed their families. We’re lucky we can afford a category 6 diesel car( would prefer hydrogen but they don’t exist and we can’t afford electric to ferry a family of 6). Not sure why those not so fortunate should be excluded from going to work in order to feed their families. We live 13 miles from our city as do thousands of others. Our public services are shite and no good for many lines of work. My dh is ultra fit and has cycled it. The maj couldn’t( it’s dangerous as not Amsterdam’s or Copenhsgen).Those that can’t afford Cat 6 cars shouldn’t be stopped from working and forced to give up work with a non workable commute.

The ignorance and arrogance on this thread is astounding.

would prefer hydrogen but they don’t exist

and are unlikely to. Hydrogen is a pig to store - for very little energy.

impossiblecat you wouldn’t piss in my tea and not expect some kind of come back.

Well the water you drink from a tap has already been drunk by multiple people. That’s pollution! The air you breathe, the water you drink, airwaves, etc. Do you suggest taxing us further. Over population is the problem.

The ignorance and arrogance on this thread is astounding.

Unfortunately I'm no longer surprised by those kinds of attitudes. Yes, let's all move to cities, use all the local schools, homes, amenities and GP surgeries. Because that won't cause it's own set of problems at all - we all know there's no such thing as over-subscribed schools, all GP and dentists have plenty of space for new patients and there are thousands of homes standing empty at affordable prices too!

So, I never suggested a congestion charge anywhere near you. I know your part of the world well enough to know it's not appropriate.

Yet, you're still arguing with me? Why? The north west is a very specific place. It has it's own unique issues. Big cities and their environs are very different. You generally don't get the kind of poverty you get in Whitehaven (worked there) in the green belts of big cities. You get leafy builds which cost a lot- because you can drive into the city in twenty minutes. Geography matters here.

But issues of rural poverty do exist elsewhere - to say otherwise is just daft.

You've had other posters tell you that it wouldn't work in their areas for similar reasons - lack of transport from their area into the city and the cost of paying a congestion charge on top of city parking.

People are constantly priced out of living in cities - housing costs are astronomical and so if people wish to buy they have to do so in rural areas and commute to work. If said rural area doesn't run a bus past 6pm or on a Sunday then saying "well, there's transport within the city" is irrelevant. I used to live in the south east and plenty of rural communities had no public transport - no trains, no Sunday or late night bus services - if you were a shift worker, a nurse or anything that wasn't your standard 9-5 and you lived in a village then driving was your only option! Implementing a congestion charge isn't going to change the fact that millions of people have no choice but to drive to work and school everyday.

Change the infrastructure first, then start penalising people who don't use it. But don't begin by penalising people who can't use that infrastructure through no fault of their own.

Why are you so against public transport being improved instead of a CC OP? I speak as a non-driver btw You have to admit that transport in the UK outside London is not great compared to other countries in Europe and it costs lot. I don't think the NW is unique btw; the PP had a good point about rural poverty and it is all over. Bus services are being cut all over where my parents live (SE) and buses aren't great where I am either (SW). I am lucky that I live in a city near the centre but to do that I compromise by living in a tiny flat which is only possible because I do have not have DC so hardly an option for the majority.

And good point about shift workers adaline most train and bus services stop quite early (even quite central ones outside London) so what are those people meant to do?

By rural poverty you seem to mean small towns- Whitehaven, Maryport. That's not rural. Nor are people from those places commute to Manchester for a minimum wage job. The fuel and running costs would wipe it out.

I challenge anyone to find poverty within the greenbelts of any major city. It's not there. It's commuterville and downright expensive commuterville. The low paid workers in those big cities live in shite estates and tower blocks- in the city.

And where on Earth have I said I'm against improving public transport - that's half the point of what I'm saying.

They drive in and pay the charge- the London weighting is there for a reason.

I only live 8 miles from the city i work in - there’s a bus an hour if you’re lucky with the last one home leaving the city before 5pm. I couldn’t work if I had to take public transport. The congestion is a nightmare but there’s little choice in many places

YABU. Instead of penalising people for going about their daily lives local governments need to make cities more user friendly. Most British cities are unworkable without a car because walking routes and public transport are completely shit. Carrot rather than stick.

I challenge anyone to find poverty within the greenbelts of any major city. It's not there

Define "poverty", and let's see then.

I very rarely go into town and city centres anymore. If there was a congestion charge I would probably never go because it's much easier to do everything online now.

Have you seen the adverts on tv to go Christmas shopping in your high street? That's because shops are struggling to compete with the internet. Put yet another obstacle in people's paths and you may soon find no shops at all.

I certainly don't just mean towns like Whitehaven and Maryport - I live in a town much smaller than either of those two and there is certainly poverty here. Boarded up houses, anti-social behaviour, a complete lack of amenities or funding by the council - no swimming pool, no cinema, no youth centre as we've had the funding taken away. No weekend bus or train service, nothing. We are a small coastal town and there are loads of them all facing similar problems up and down the country.

Besides, poor public transport isn't the reserve of places that struggle with poverty and low income. I work in a middle class town with no train station, no buses past 7pm in winter and regular transport strikes. Nobody there struggles for money but equally they can't rely on public transport to get to work either!