Is this neglect

[Barneythedinosaur]

NC because I don't know if she is on here. Sorry if it's long, want to try and make sure I don't miss anything.

Dsis1 has a daughter, she's almost 8. Dsis1 split with dds dad about a year ago and moved back in with parents.

Dd was an accident, unintentional, and dsis regrets having her. Dsis1 has said multiple times that she never wanted kids, will never have any more, only had dd due to accident/ mistake, wishes she'd not had her, has no maternal/ any feeling for her at all.

Dsis1 is regularly out late at night. She works until 8pm 4 days a week, so parents or my other sister (dsis2) look after dn (I live 20m away and dsis2 lives round the corner). However, dsis1 doesn't go home after work most days. She stays out until 11/12pm without telling parents/dsis2, won't answer her phone, is pretty much uncontactable. She often says to dm can you look after dn for a few minutes, I need to nip to the shops then only goes home 3 hours later. She never puts dn to bed, dn is left with a DVD to watch until whenever she falls asleep.

Meals are left to my parents, dsis1 often goes out or orders herself a takeaway then asks dm what she is going to feed dn.
Dn has very bad teeth as dsis1 won't help her brush them and never has. If you ask dn, quite often she hasn't brushed her teeth for days as dsis1 never asks her to.
Dsis2 has dn Friday evenings quite often so dsis1 can go out (She feels bad for my parents as if she didn't have dn, dsis1 would go out anyway leaving dn with our parents again). Dsis1 never sends clothes for dn, so dsis2 dresses her in her daughter's clothes, including underwear. Dsis2 has told me that she's been at our parents on a Tuesday/ Wednesday, and dn is still wearing the knickers dsis2 gave her, and when she's asked dn she hasn't had them washed in between, just hasn't changed them.

Dsis1 won't help dn with her homework, when dn asks dsis1 tells her to shut up because she doesn't want to listen to her and the homework can be done another time. I've never seen dsis1 play with dn whenever I've been there, dm and dsis2 say she doesn't. The most they do together is watch a movie.
Dn misses out on family days unless we take her, dsis1 will never come on days out or even to the park and refuses to take dn. A lot of dns clothes are too small, and she only has 2 pairs of shoes- black trainers and boots. She wears the trainers for school as she doesn't have school shoes.

When I see them together, I only ever see dsis1 being irritated with dn, complaining at her or telling her off even if she doesn't appear to have done anything wrong. I'm not sure if dn sees that she's treated differently to her cousins, but I'm sure she will as she gets older. She's starting to play up and misbehave a bit for attention.

Is this neglect? It doesn't sit right with me, but dn is fed and clothed and played with, just never by her mother. My parents resent having to look after dn, but they do it because they say otherwise she wouldn't be looked after and would miss out on everything.

If she really is out as much as you say she is (working till 8 4 days a week) I’d say her grandparents are also guilty of neglecting her. By 8pm they should be supervising her teeth brushing & bathing, helping her with homework & putting her to bed. I don’t think an 8 year old giving attitude (understandable giving what she’s been through) is a reason not to do these things.

Barney, in response to your question about Social Services, yes, they would do something despite your family supporting your neice. Your sister needs some help in addressing her parenting skills and SS will give her techniques and coping mechanisms etc on parenting. In all fairness your family are giving a bit of help but your sister's approach to parenting has not has changed.

If she didn't want a baby, why did she bloody have one? Or, why didn't she put her up for adoption as an infant?

Poor girl

@Didyeeaye so sorry to hear that.

We have had some help from a family support worker (employed by Social Services but not a SW) owing to our difficulties with our DS' behaviour (he has SEN and we're waiting for an assessment).
To us, she was very helpful, but you would need to want to cooperate. I feel like the GPs would benefit (like us, we really needed some fresh ideas, some confidence, a united front, and someone from outside the family making us see what is OK and what isn't) but it's a toss up whether your Dsis1 would engage or not.

This is so sad.

If I leave my DD 5 to her own devices she will run her own bath (often shortly before I do) brush her teeth (which sometimes need re-doing 🙄 but still) and put on clean knickers etc.

I can't imagine calling it anything but "neglect" when a child thinks it's genuinely OK to not take even the most basic care of herself, and nobody steps in properly to do it for her.

Of course she's upset when her mum goes to work. She doesn't expect her to come home any time soon, and probably is afraid she won't come back at all as she shows so little interest in her. Devastating.
This child is going to end up with some pretty major issues not least with attachment, trauma and self care.

I'm glad the ex is no longer involved as he sounds like a prize twat but Mum doesn't sound much better tbh

I’m so sorry, this sounds like an awful situation. This is absolutely neglect, and you should contact social services. Ultimately somebody has to be legally responsible for the child’s welfare, and if her mother isn’t going to look out for her then that needs to be passed onto someone else. They can take a long time to intervene as they need to gather evidence, assess everyone involved, etc, so the sooner you start this the better it will be all round.

@whatsthepointthen haha I was 16 when I was homeless and 18 fell pregnant and no family support at all -age shouldn't come into this
She is selfish

Op I hope the talk goes well with your parents and Dsis 2 so you can get something in motion for helping DN.

So, how did it go?

This is so sad your poor dn. No bond or attachment from her own mum. Dn is clearly begging for love from her I can't understand how she can be so selfish. Your dsis isn't much younger than me age is no excuse. There needs to be some kind of intervention as unfortunately it sounds like you all as a family are facilitating this to continue.
I hope you all came to some kind of agreement on how to move forward for that little girl. Attachment issues will have an impact on her for the rest of her life, you only need to read a few threads on here about dysfunctional family relationships and the emotional scarring it leaves behind.

I get that lyndar My sister had a baby at 16 and is now a teacher and her son is very well looked after but this girl was obviously not mature enough and the family should have stepped up, theyre all failing this girl tbh.

Dsis2 and parents think that because dsis1 chose to have the baby dn is her responsibility and she needs to parent.
I agreed that was fair enough, but at the minute it isn't happening and dn is the one who is suffering which isn't fair. They agreed we need to do something, but they are hoping it's temporary. I'm not convinced a temporary measure will work tbh.
We spoke to dsis1 when she got home from work. She doesn't see a problem because dn is fed, dressed, warm and safe.

She did (eventually) agree to support and accepts dn will benefit from consistency. It was difficult, and she did get angry. She seemed very close to just walking out, and didn't really want to discuss it. She kept saying she's my daughter and I manage. It took all of us saying multiple times that she doesn't really manage and dn only has the things she does due to family help before dsis1 agreed to listen.
She said she is really struggling, finds being a parent very hard, and with hindsight she would probably have made a different decision when pregnant. But she loves her daughter and doesn't want to lose her, she just doesn't know how to cope. She said she's been suffering with anxiety and depression, and is on antidepressants. She hid this from us because she was embarrassed.
She's agreed to us taking on a lot of the responsibility between us for a few months, with her gradually taking more back on. She's looking into parenting classes as well.

Dsis2 is going to collect dn from school Monday, and have her until they drop her off at school Wednesday morning. Parents will collect her Wednesday, and have her until Friday evening. I'm going to pick her up Friday evening, and drop her back at parents Sunday evening. Dn will still get to see her mum a couple of days a week this way. Parents have agreed that Wednesday and Thursday evening they will help dn to wash and brush her teeth etc.

Hopefully this will help dn, and give her some consistency. And hopefully dsis1 does step up. Dsis2 and parents believe her that she will, I'm not too convinced though

Sounds like a plan, but what timescale did you give dsis1 to seek help? From whom? Who is going to ensure it gets done? How will you all assess how well things are going?
I'm not being unkind, I do get how hard this is for you all and I think this has the potential to be huge progress.

But.
It could end up with dsis1 doing virtually no parenting at all (because you are all doing it for her) and actually not seeking any help.
OR, because you are all stepping in, even if dsis1 does seek help, it won't be as forthcoming for that very reason! Because DN is being looked after (by the rest of you) and therefore no longer at risk.

I really do think you need a cut off point of a defined period (say, six weeks or something) and I think you also need to contact childrens social services about all this, so they can arrange parenting classes, support etc.
Well done for having what must have been a difficult family meeting xxx

That is my concern chicken, I'm worried dsis1 despite what she said will just let us get on with it.

She said she's going to speak to the children's centre before the end of the week, I will check with her on Friday. She's also going to get another gp appointment as she doesn't feel like she's getting any better, but the surgery is pretty busy so that will likely be about 3 weeks before she can get one.
I just don't honestly know if anything will change. We can make this work for a short time but probably can't afford it long term.
We've initially given dsis1 2 months because a lot of places will be closed over Christmas.

It was very difficult and I'm sure she felt like we were ganging up on her a bit. I felt pretty bad for her but knew we couldn't back down.

I think your fears are justified, tbh :(. After all, she was "supposed" to be parenting g all this time, and she really hasn't coped, has she?
I fear it will need official intervention for her to really do something about it. Which will NOT happen, as long as you are all doing it for her. (I know, it's hard when it's your DN who suffers :( )
I do know what I'm talking about, both looking after an elder person with dementia and a child/adult with SEN.
You can only do the best you can, though xxx

I have 0 sympathy for your sister - DN is EIGHT for goodness sake, it’s not like she’s a few months old. The poor child has been neglected for years. I don’t even agree that DN is fed since her mother doesn’t provide food for her, or clothed since she doesn’t even have school food. It’s disgusting really.

I don't think dsis1 will accept help, as much as I love her she's very difficult

I don’t know how much love I could really feel for someone who treated a child this way.

You sound like a lovely family stuck in a really hard situation.

What I do wonder is whether involving the “authorities” would shock Dsis into action? She clearly doesn’t really want to be a mother. At the moment she’s managed to farm out that job because she has a loving family who she knows will take on the responsibility she doesn’t want. It’s all too easy for her and she’s not really suffering at all.

Hearing from social services that this isn’t acceptable parenting and they may have to look at other options (your parents having their care for your niece formalised, for example) might be enough to make her realise that she can’t just get away with ducking out of parenthood. And if she really wants to then she can, but she ducks out of all parts of it.