Is this neglect

[Barneythedinosaur]

NC because I don't know if she is on here. Sorry if it's long, want to try and make sure I don't miss anything.

Dsis1 has a daughter, she's almost 8. Dsis1 split with dds dad about a year ago and moved back in with parents.

Dd was an accident, unintentional, and dsis regrets having her. Dsis1 has said multiple times that she never wanted kids, will never have any more, only had dd due to accident/ mistake, wishes she'd not had her, has no maternal/ any feeling for her at all.

Dsis1 is regularly out late at night. She works until 8pm 4 days a week, so parents or my other sister (dsis2) look after dn (I live 20m away and dsis2 lives round the corner). However, dsis1 doesn't go home after work most days. She stays out until 11/12pm without telling parents/dsis2, won't answer her phone, is pretty much uncontactable. She often says to dm can you look after dn for a few minutes, I need to nip to the shops then only goes home 3 hours later. She never puts dn to bed, dn is left with a DVD to watch until whenever she falls asleep.

Meals are left to my parents, dsis1 often goes out or orders herself a takeaway then asks dm what she is going to feed dn.
Dn has very bad teeth as dsis1 won't help her brush them and never has. If you ask dn, quite often she hasn't brushed her teeth for days as dsis1 never asks her to.
Dsis2 has dn Friday evenings quite often so dsis1 can go out (She feels bad for my parents as if she didn't have dn, dsis1 would go out anyway leaving dn with our parents again). Dsis1 never sends clothes for dn, so dsis2 dresses her in her daughter's clothes, including underwear. Dsis2 has told me that she's been at our parents on a Tuesday/ Wednesday, and dn is still wearing the knickers dsis2 gave her, and when she's asked dn she hasn't had them washed in between, just hasn't changed them.

Dsis1 won't help dn with her homework, when dn asks dsis1 tells her to shut up because she doesn't want to listen to her and the homework can be done another time. I've never seen dsis1 play with dn whenever I've been there, dm and dsis2 say she doesn't. The most they do together is watch a movie.
Dn misses out on family days unless we take her, dsis1 will never come on days out or even to the park and refuses to take dn. A lot of dns clothes are too small, and she only has 2 pairs of shoes- black trainers and boots. She wears the trainers for school as she doesn't have school shoes.

When I see them together, I only ever see dsis1 being irritated with dn, complaining at her or telling her off even if she doesn't appear to have done anything wrong. I'm not sure if dn sees that she's treated differently to her cousins, but I'm sure she will as she gets older. She's starting to play up and misbehave a bit for attention.

Is this neglect? It doesn't sit right with me, but dn is fed and clothed and played with, just never by her mother. My parents resent having to look after dn, but they do it because they say otherwise she wouldn't be looked after and would miss out on everything.

Your dn is clingy and wants her mum because she has an insecure attachment to her; she never knows when she will get attention or love and will act out to ensure she is noticed at all whether it is positive or negative. A situation needs to be created, ideally by your family, whereby she can have consistency and reassurance as well as basic care.

If you speak to childrens services and list the issues they may come and assess the situation and support the family to hold a family group conference to look at how you can all support the child, and there is a chance they might feel she is not able to remain with your sister.

If the family is able to come up with something, that is far better than involving social workers, but you may need to escalate if the mother is not willing to cooperate with you all.

Think creatively, if you had child benefit and your parents were able to help a little both with time and money, could you accommodate her? Or could your parents have her with you and your other sister supporting them? Mum could have her sometimes if she is able to offer this positively. This doesn’t need to be about taking your sister’s child away, but could be a way for her and her daughter to live more happily, whatever that looks like.

I think your parents need to step up. I don’t think there is any excuse not to take care of this little girl. your sister is selfish and childish. But your parents are allowing a child to be neglected under their roof because if they step up and do the right thing they will be stuck with the responsibility. That is a very sad situation - but you all need to stop faffing about and take charge of the situation before this little girls childhood slips away.

Im sorry, but it sounds like your sister needs putting into a situation where she will accept help for her daughters sake.

I also want to challenge the excuse of her being a young mum, many, many people have their children at a similar age, and very few end up in this sort of state with their children. I am not being judgemental, but I did have my daughter a few weeks after I turned 17, and as harsh as this may sound, but she decided to keep her daughter, so she really needs to step up and be a good mum.

I would maybe try to meet the situation from a different viewpoint first. If you look online you will be able to find information in regards to what is considered abuse in varying forms/physical/mental/emotional and neglect. I would seriously consider printing these out and pointing out where DN is falling in these areas.

At this point she really, really needs to admit that she understands that there is an issue and commit to working on it, or Social services need to be involved.

Its all fairly easy, and as your DSIS is working, and at home with your parents theres no reason that she shouldnt have access to the money to buy DN new clothes, or money for trips out. As a starting point she should really go and buy her DD some new clothes, some new school shoes- or boots, a couple of jumpers from primark and a couple of pairs of jeans or leggings, it could be a really nice little trip for the two of them to have together, and really they could do similar once a month.

There is plenty that she can do with her daughter at the moment, a cosy walk around the park with hot chocolates, or a trip to see some christmas lights, go to the cinema to see a chirstmassy film, shopping for presents for other family members, or out for dinner together?

also, if you are having problems with DN brushing her teeth, boots sell disclosing tablets, these are with the childrens toothbrushes, tell her they are unicorn tablets...I still make my daughter use them, the blue and pink that comes from them is very bright, and we recently had a sleepover, and all the kids chose to use them, and it meant they saw it as a "fun" activity and actually brushed their teeth properly.

if your mum washes all of DNs clothes, i assume she has appropriate amounts of underwear? id be implementing sticker charts, for her to remember to change her undies and socks.. i know some children will get out of the shower and put the same things on they took off!

it does sound pretty bad, but the situation can get much better, really easily, id bet she has no idea how badly shes really doing

Send everything you've typed here, including your relevant updates, and send them to social services.

Everyone is letting this little girl down. Everyone. Even you, frankly. You can love her and be concerned, but you've been watching all this, too, for years!

Someone needs to step up and be this girl's loving guardian or let social services find her one.

She doesn’t wash her child or her child’s clothes, and leaves her in dirty knickers for days? Yes, it’s neglect.

If I were you I’d sit down with DSis2 and your parents, and have a frank chat about DSi’s behaviour. You all need to decide what to do, but I don’t think it should be an option to let things carry on as they are. Your DN needs someone who cares about her all the time, not just when family are babysitting.

There is a harsh way to look at it: Could you, your DSis2 and your parents really give up your DN/GC to the care system? The GPs I know (situation with some similarities) could not and are now fostering their GC.

Family meeting needed to decide how you collectively answer this question, and how it can be made to work for you all. I suspect that means the GPs taking parental responsibility, you and your DSis2 commiting to regular respite care and DSis1 paying a contribution as well as becoming more adult.

I was going to say it sounded like your parents were neglecting her too but it sounds like your niece has them wrapped around her little finger a bit in terms of being allowed to get away with things, and if they want that to change they need to be a bit stricter whether your sister wants that or not.

I’m a foster carer. I have 2 boys with me. 9 and 10. I don’t check they’ve changed their pants every day. I do give them clean ones but if they have chosen to use the same pair for a few days I may not know for a while until sorting out clean washing and seeing there’s not many pants there (as far as I know they’ve never done this). So your niece choosing to wear dirty pants even though her grandmother does wash her clothes probably wouldn’t be seen as neglect but rather as a behaviour issue. Same as teeth brushing. I imagine your mum buys her a toothbrush and toothpaste. She’s 8, she should be old enough to be trusted to brush her teeth and change her pants when grandparents say so. The fact that she doesn’t is down to your sister expecting your parents to look after her child but then not actually giving them the authority that goes with it.

Does she respect her teacher? Could you ask the teacher to have a word with her about brushing her teeth etc? Sometimes children are so keen to please a teacher they’ll do for them what they wouldn’t normally do!

I do think, if your parents want your niece there, that they need to step up a bit. It’s all very well saying ‘her mum won’t let us’ but from what you’ve said the mum isn’t there half the time to argue their rules. Can grandma not check if there are pants in the washing pile before niece goes to bed? Can she not refuse to let the TV on in the morning unless niece has brushed her teeth? Or turn it off/take toys away if niece is refusing to go to bed? Can she not take niece shopping for school shoes while mum is at work? Same goes for Grandad.

Yes, it’s crap that they have to parent your niece when their children are grown up and they shouldn’t have to but if they want their grandchild to live with them they need to be a bit more proactive. If they don’t want to do that then yes, someone needs to inform SS that the child’s mother is neglecting her and the rest of the family can’t take over full time.

Thank you all.
Dsis1 is working until 8pm tonight, so I'm going to go to my parents with dsis2 after dinner and discuss what we can do to help dn and try and get dsis1 to step up. Or how to change the situation so that dn is looked after even if dsis1 won't step up (as I suspect she wont)

Your parents need to kick your sister out. They are enabling her to get away with this behaviour by allowing her to stay under their roof.

Are you sure between you, your other sister and your parents that none of you can have your niece, even on a temporary basis?

The reality is that if you can't, and things continue, SS will get involved anyway through the school, and if that happens and none of you will take responsibility for her she may get put into foster care.

If you do speak to SS, which I think you should, they can help your sister, support her, and try and get her back on track. Maybe the fact that you and your family have been trying to do it is the reason she's not listening, but if a professional speaks to her she may realise this is serious and she could lose her daughter if things don't change.

Oh and I'd like to apologise to any young parents who thought I was using her age as an excuse, I didn't mean it like that.
I more meant that she sees her friends with no responsibilities and just having fun and wishes she could do the same. Specially with her never really wanting kids and not wanting her daughter. She wishes she was like her friends, a single young woman with no responsibilities who can do what she wants. And I think she resents the fact that she isn't tbh.

This is heartbreaking. None of your family are looking after her to an acceptable standard which is so sad when there are so many people who want more than anything to have children. Surely she'd be better off in foster care with a view to adoption? The title of this thread should not be 'Is this neglect', it should be 'What can I do to stop this neglect?'. Please act ASAP.

8She wishes she was like her friends, a single young woman with no responsibilities who can do what she wants. And I think she resents the fact that she isn't tbh.*

How can any woman in this day and age not know she has a choice?

Your sister is making choices. You and your family are giving her those choices, and she is consistently making the wrong ones. That little girl has no choice, she has no voice and no power. Your sister needs to be told her responsibilities and the quickest and easiest way is if the family around her do that. Your parents could start proceedings to have parental control - a kinship/guardianship arrangement if you like - and just factor DSis1 out of it, because frankly she's selfish and cruel.

Your sister has been raised in what I presume was a loving home with everything she needed, and now the very people that did that are enabling her to take that away from her own child. Your parents are the main people affected by this, they need to decide if they are going to step up or not.

Getting social service’s involved could end up with your sister taking your niece and leaving with her again.

If social services are involved, the child is deemed in need, and the sister takes her then social services will follow.

From the other points you've made, possibilities include:
Your Dsis2, if she's in social housing, might be able to move to a larger place if she's deemed overcrowded (unless the baby is under 2 and both the older DCs are under 10 I imagine she already is overcrowded).
You might be able to make ends meet better if you had Child Benefit, Child Tax Credits etc.
If your parents were officially your DN's carers not your sister, then she couldn't just take her - and from what you've said, she might just go off without your DN if she didn't have control any more. Which might, actually, be a better outcome.

Your poor DN has been through all kinds if things that many children who are in foster care have been through but their new carers have been trained to deal with this. Living with the partner must have been really traumatic for her. I'm not surprised she's resistant to care (she will have had to rely on herself at a much too young age, and many scary things happening, mean she wants to be in control). You or your parents may be able to get help with her behaviour.

But well done your Dsis1 at least for taking her out of that situation.

Rhiannon - this child would not be adopted if she went into care. She’s nearly 8 now, by the time all the procedures and everything had been gone through she’d probably be 9. It is very, very unlikely that a 9 year old would be adopted. Best case scenario, other than living with a family member, would be long term foster care which can be quite similar to adoption. My boys are long term with me, call me mum etc but still have contact with their birth family and still have their parents’ surname. But going into foster care is traumatic for children. Ideally this little girl will stay with family.

If I was you I would offer with my dsis and dp to take on the role of parenting the poor girl. Your parents should ask dsis to leave their home so they can just concentrate on dn. dn can spend alternate weekends at yours or dsis to give your parents a break. With stability your dn behaviour will improve.

but to me, it very much sounds like shes just like her 24 year old mates without kids,

she isnt running a household all by herself,
she doesnt rush home to cook dinner for her daughter,
she similarly doesnt go home to bath her daughter, sort her daughters hair, teeth brushing, homework and read a book to her before bed, then chuck a load of washing or two on before going to bed herself.
she isnt by the sounds of it spending her money on her daughters immediate needs.
These responsibilities are every day motherhood, im really not trying to be mean, but she doesnt seem to have any extra responsibilities from what youve said,

it doesnt even sound like she asks to speak with her daughter to explain that Nanny and Grandad will be putting her to bed that evening.

i hope your family chat goes well this evening, when changes are made for DN she is going to be quite confused, so please make things as fun and exciting as possible, shes truly not going to understand why its been ok until now to not brush her teeth etc etc and now everything needing to change.

I hope you an all come up with a plan tonight and stick to it. In be concerned that she will just take her off again though to the next boyfriends house or hostel if you corner her. If she really doesn't want her then either one of you will have to step up or put her out for foster.

I agree with Kitsandkids, the child would not be put up for adoption. Unless things really progressed with SS, i.e. your sister saying she doesn't want her and does want her to be adopted, and ALL of you sy you wouldn't take the child.

From what you've said you all love her, so I would hope you would do all you can to stop her going into care/being adopted if that happened.
And it would take a good few months/year for anything serious to happen re; taking the child away, as at the moment she does have a family that look after her.

Poor girl. Definitely neglected. You must have a family meeting and sort this out. As a poster above said, at 8 she could maintain her own hygiene re teeth, undoes etc. To ensure this, sit and have a chat with the lass and talk to her about hygiene. She could end up bullied at school, sadly, if other children start to notice a lack of freshness etc as puberty will hit soon just to make it all harder. Please sort this out before then as she will likely start to act out her unhappiness in one destructive way or another which will drive her further away from family support.

Sad thing is that through their actions - making sure she has a clean uniform on - your DPs are masking the neglect so that teachers won't alert social services as she's above the threshold for neglect.

I think your DPs and other Dsis need to keep doing what you can and up the ante a bit. In this day and age there is little excuse for a DC not to have a pair of school shoes which can be bought cheaply from a chain store, particularly when the DM has enough money for takeaways.

All sounds so sad, particularly when your DPs resent the poor girl as well. I don't know what the answer is though.

OP your situation is very similar to mine. My sister has substance abuse issues and I tried to look after her and the kids for as long as I could so they weren't taken in to care but after giving birth to my son who was premature and colicky I couldn't keep it up and they were taking in to care. I'm riddled with guilt and blame myself when in reality I should have asked social services for help long before. Contact them and raise your concerns. Your DN deserves better.

Have only skimmed replies so sorry if this has been said. It is much easier for SS to help before you have exhausted all the other options as they can potentially find additional support to make one of those options work. If you exhaust all other options first then things are likely to be far worse than they are now and it makes it much harder to improve things for you niece. Please get some support for your family soon

I feel really sad for this little girl. It is neglect and age is no excuse. Plenty of teenage mums weren't planning kids and still end up loving mums.
Sounds like dsis2 is the nearest thing to a mum this poor girl has.
What does dsis say? Have any of you challenged her about it?
Even basic needs aren't being met here. No clean clothes. No help to keep clean. No input on homework. Pretty soon this is all going to flag up with the school especially given the new bad behaviour.
Ok dsis didn't want the baby but she's here now and needs love and care from someone!
Fwiw many of us have had an unexpected surprise baby but we count it as a blessing.
I only ever meant to have one child (ds) but along came dd 6 years later and I wouldn't be without her.