AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

wrexham I know you’ve applied for a GRC but there have been delays in you receiving one. This is despite you being on hormones and having had some surgery already, if I’m correct? Could you please explain a bit more (if you feel comfortable) about the process of applying for one and the criteria? I understand TRA’s say it’s requires too much ‘digging’ as such which is why they want self ID, whereas the GC say it does not do enough...

I'm not being prurient - these questions are important to my understanding

I’m not suggesting you were. I just thought it worth a reminder of the lack of privacy.

The law is still the same! (For now atleast) That you must have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, have had surgery or a compelling reason not too have, lived as your sex for minimum of 2 years and plan to for the rest of your life. Then it gets looked into by an independent body. This is not the same as someone’s ‘say so’

Early, i'm sure we've had this conversation. Karen Jones, killer and attempted rapist, had a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

Predation doesn't have to involve your anatomy, at all.

You've already seen this happen. If you make a law that allows men access women, men will exploit it. You can't possibly make any criteria that can't be faked. (With the exception of surgery, which is unworkable).

It just means that you are providing predators with a legitimacy that they wouldn't otherwise have.

I know you want to include people who you think are genuine. But to many women the sincerity of the man in their space is irrelevant.

We can't turn back the clock. This is not the fault of women. TRAs have ruined it. It's gone. What ever laws are reformed or changed, the trust has gone.

I have been exposed to misogyny that I genuinely didn't think existed on this scale.

The number of men who hate women is so much greater than I could ever have imagined.

Equally the number of men who don't see it is also very distressing. Plus the men who see it and don't care.

It's gone a long way to understanding, as a society, why we minimise rape culture, violence against women and rank sexism.

@wrexhamtrans

Thank you for this thread. Many, many people will read it and not reply, but you will have had an impact regardless.

I really enjoyed your pint of view and being open to answer questions

You don't have to give a reason why you haven't had surgery OR hormones to get a GRC.

I have professional experience of one gender identity clinic and I don't know of them NOT giving a diagnosis of GD even when the persons own Psychiatrist (who sees them for other MH problems, not GD) expresses concern.

I rally appreciate Wrexham's honesty, the post provides valuable insight into what it is like to live with gender dysphoria and to be a transwoman because that to me is what Wrexham is despite what some of you think. I don't blame you for withdrawing from the thread, as I can see people pilling onto you, picking apart everything that you have said. That is very hard, obviously you cannot see it from their veiwpoint because you are not a natal woman. YOu have come on here to discuss it from your perspective and hats off to you.

What you have said is very respectful of women, and gives insight into being a transwoman, which many non transwomen like myself do not have a clue about. There could be transwomen like wrexham in women's spaces already, they probably were years ago, but nobody noticed. The rigerous assesments that they had to go through ensured those like the TRAs, fetishists, perverts did not get through. The problem now with GRA is that anybody can identify at their say so whether they are a man or a woman, with no medical or professional input, and this being accepted by the law. Which is deeply concerning and opens up non trans women's vulnerable position in society. This needs addressing asap, I would prefer it to go back to how it used to be.

I would just like to congratulate all the bullies here who have chased away the OP and sent PM's to her.
It is OK to disagree with opinions and discuss it.It is not OK to rubbish the person that open ed a thread to start a discussion.
The OP is not to blame for the state iof things and has been thrown under the bus with us by men.
I don't often chip into these threads as they are either populated by people cleverer than I am or just out for a fight.I have learnt a lot from these threads but as usual this has descended into a bun fight.

@seventhgonickname completely agree. I'm also very disappointed with how this thread has gone & how the OP has been treated. Not acceptable.

I have paticipated and read all 10 pages. Where is the bullying?

The OP has been asked questions and been given personnel opinions. Is that not what the thread was for?

Bullying? Do you not ever wonder why you consider the irritation and annoyance of women on here as bullying, but across the rest of the site people get told to fuck off, grow up, and be given biscuits, left right and centre.

The OP, as much as it may not mean anything to you, certainly insulted women by claiming that we all had a psychological identical identity.

It's what has held women back for centuries. It is insulting, and old-fashioned and regressive.

It's also the cornerstone of transgenderism. The OP, themself can see it. They can understand that should men be more able to express themselves as feminine without criticism, things may have been different.

It's not their fault, but they have absolutely bought into the idea that gender stereotypes are ingrained and innate. Too right that will provoke anger. Especially when is used as a basis to dismantle women's rights.

The OP leaving is what makes you think this is bullying. It's not bullying. But it is leveraging your socialisation. Something very many transwomen are good at.

It is, presumably, rather necessary in order to navigate life as the opposite sex.

But when it doesn't work, that's no reason to walk off.

seven how do you know that happened?

sent PM's to her.

I'd be utterly shocked if those were from the gender critical feminists.

Bullying?

It's ok to call women superficial but when we talk back it is bullying?

Sheesh.

Seventh I don't see any bullying, I see women using exactly the same tone they use to talk to anyone else on the forum, it's MN, it's not the other place.

I worry about transpeople who believe they pass. Wrex said that she had been invited into women's places and is accepted - and I am glad of that. She was invited, that's lovely and I am happy for trans women to be in shared spaces as agreed by the women.

The delusion here is that there is no difference between what women say to trans women's faces and what we say anonymously online.

I think that is why it is so confronting for transpeople - they are USED to being accepted, their social circle and social media is full of women saying "you pass, so brave, so beautiful".

So when their thinking is challenged, even politely, they withdraw from the discussion. Lily M cites transphobia, Wrex said it was disrespectful tone, it's always one or the other.

I suspect that the #nodebate line is because there IS no debate, that the trans people themselves know there isn't a reasonable answer to why they should be allowed into sex segregated spaces. So, they'd rather shut us up than argue their point.

Thank you for coming on, Wrex, it was helpful.

Datum ,don't tell me what I think or that I am being leveraged,I have my own opinions.
IBeing respectful isn't just a female trait(though I understand fully where your coming from).Debate is one thing but it all started to become personal.,because you don't see doesn't mean it isn't so to others.
I don't want to get into a debate with people who will pick my post apart instead of trying to hear what I am saying however poorly put.We are not all wordsmiths.
Also I a very un woke ,worry about these things as I have a daughter .

You think it's both perhaps because of your 'condition'.

Women are adult human females.

From birth we're bombarded with information which we use and compute for survival of ourselves and our species. I think we're designed like other mammals to ensure our personal survival and thereby the survival of our species!

Gender stereotypes are imprinted on us from the time we're born, accelerated and reinforced through our socialisation at nursery/primary school. As someone with a degree in education and another in psychology, I'm surprised at how easily politics trumps the science of how best children and adults learn, how easily educators are sidelined by politicians in terms of how best to educate kids and adults and always behind that is how much funding is required!

As quickly as our brains recognise a chair is distinct from a table which is different to a book, which is not to be sucked on in the same way as a bottle full of milk or a wine gum covered in fibre we find under the sofa, we learn to distinguish between male and female. We do this because it's important for our survival.

That some males have throughout human history thrown off gender norms and are unable to compute, adhere to and live with gender stereotypes is the fault of stringent societies that seek to force us all to adhere to gender norms in order to preserve a hierarchy of power.

If we think about our history even now in our 'enlightened' age, 50% of the human race are governed by the other 50% who tell us how much we can earn in comparison to them; where we can breast feed; what we can say and wear in public and how many of us can politically/religiously represent our class as women.

They determine whether we've really been raped by their own male thoughts of what a woman is e.g. how pink and frilly our nickers were when we were raped ie how turned on they are by seeing those panties in a court of law. They will still kill us for personal slights in the family home and on a larger scale our dissent even in 'polite societies' two of us are murdered every week because we are born female.

That some males feel unequal, from a young age to being lord and master, to 50% of the population is the key to overthrowing patriarchy not reinforcing it with the rules patriarchy has fashioned for us all. You're not a woman because you don't meet the standards of misogyny - Perhaps you exist and have flourished over a centuries because it's unnatural for 50% of you male bodied people to so forcefully and brutally rule over the rest of us. Whether you call yourselves woman or man.

Women's political oppression, rape and murder in every society is a quantifiable fact. Gendered brains are not

Bullying?
My refusing to be naked in a space with a male person is bullying?
My saying no, I don't consent, is bullying?
My saying my daughter is too young to consent, is bullying?
My saying females don't have female psychology is bullying?

So, to NOT be a bully to any particular male, I must admit my ladybrain, relinquish my consent, and strip myself and my daughter naked in a room with him?
And if I refuse to do that I'm a bully?

Just so we're clear.

I agree with most of the OP. To be honest, I do not understand what it means when a natal man says he feels like a woman. I do think that sometimes stereotypes and inflexible, sometimes brutal parenting are at the basis of this. But if someone has genuine dysphoria, I don’t think it is for me to deny it. I think their life and what they have to go through is significantly awful enough for me to feel I can accept what they say out of compassion. And importantly, numbers are small enough for this to not be a huge issue. Meanwhile we do what we can to challenge sexist expectations and stereotypes.

So, with proper diagnosis, controls, and safeguards as the OP suggests, I say fine.

But, self Id. No. It’s a charter for predators whether they come under the ridiculously large trans umbrella or whether they don’t, but just see self Id as an opportunity. Not just not that. Culturally, being trans seems to now be a lifestyle choice, and a way for men to dominate, and take over women’s spaces, opportunities, language and make us as a separate group, invisible. To deny facts because of ideology is scary to me. Women can’t have penises, no matter how many times it’s said.

I think it is good to read this view from a transexual woman. I also think the very sad thing about this, as this thread makes clear, is that the unreasonable TRA demands have created a backlash that will affect all trans people, not just those on the self Id bandwagon.

I would urge the OP and those like her to also campaign against the TRA demands and self Id. Your views will in this current climate, count for a lot. Just to end, I do think it is sad the way this thread has gone. Debate is the way forward. This was a positive step.

Well nice again to be told I'm a little woman who doesn't understand.,by other women.

I think it's because on the thread that the OP enjoyed so much, there were a number of cheerleaders (and I was called hateful and akin to a racist BNP member for saying TW aren't women but that's by the by..😁)

She said it was on the whole a respectful debate but I think she meant it was just respectful to her and so she didn't anticipate the level of debate and questioning she encountered here, hence the fucking off.

seventhgonickname

You said we have chased away the OP and people had sent her, presumably nasty messages. You called us bullies and that we rubbished her.

Criticising a persons posts, their ideology and picking it apart isn't bullying. Particularly as the OP started this thread for the very purpose of opening a dialogue.

This happens relentlessly. Someone decides to educate the women on mumsnet, the women pushback and they disappear.

This isn't bullying. If you think it is, I don't know why.

So, with proper diagnosis, controls, and safeguards as the OP suggests, I say fine.

Karen White has a diagnosis of GD. Tara Hudson didn't but still managed to get transferred to a female prison despite having a fully functional penis.

For lots of posters who have been here a long time, the OP isn't the first TW wanting to educate MNetters while simultaneously wanting to prove that TW like them are completely harmless, on 'our side' and they are the kind of TW exceptions should be made for..