To think this woman was ridiculous

[lastqueenofscotland]

I am leaving my job and am helping interview for my replacement.

Just had an interview with a lady and were just confirming that everyone is expected to work one Saturday a month and there is some overtime (paid at 1.5x hourly rate) certain months of the year.
The woman said that wouldn’t work for her and we were like “oh it was in the job description” and she puffs out her chest and declares loudly
“But I am a mother I can’t believe you have NO flexibility for this.”

Colleague who is the mother of 4 inc an 18 month year old had to seriously bite her tongue.

It’s really annoyed me and I can’t work out why

I completely agree Threadastaire. I will always help out, but I won't be taken advantage of (thankfully my company and colleagues don't do that). I don't go out very often but I don't want to be working continually.

The point of the OP is that THIS job involves one Saturday a month and some overtime. I think that if someone can’t be bothered to read the job description you don’t want them working for you! Or at least make the effort to contact in advance to ask, to save wasting time. We advertised for someone in the same role as me last year - she was perfect, but then asked if she could have set hours and no weekends! My boss was stunned, she asked me to double check the advert after, it definitely said you were expected to work a variety of shifts between the hours of x and y, including bank holidays and weekends.
I’m lucky, I have family who can help out and work around my work patterns. If I didn’t, I would have applied for a different role with fixed hours.

The biggie for me is: Show me the wrap around, 24 hour childcare and I'll show you the flexible employee.

I can't believe how many women are complicit in wheeling in the 24/7 workplace because the economy is 24/7 now, dontcha know? - to the detriment of other women.

I had a (new) manager (male, btw) ask me, all wide eyed innocence what I thought was the problem in going back onto night shift, at 56. What the problem was with turning 9 hour shifts into 13 hour shifts. I mean, I might work Saturday or Sunday, but I'd be off on, say, Tuesday!

I replied that a) night is generally to sleep in, b) I wouldn't see my family awake, and c) when my children's school go on shift, so they'd be off on Tuesday with me, but in on Sunday - ask me again.

It's women who are completely inflexible who ruin it, and get the backs up of employers and co-workers who are expected to do extra work, or ALL of the unsocial shifts because a parent chooses not to make any effort to work around the company and their team workers needs.

I used to have a job where there needed to be open from 7:00 to 5:00, so one person would start and finish early, and the other would start late and finish late. I was put on with a colleague, who before even saying hello to me, said 'I have children so need to do school drop off and pickup, so you'll need to cover the rest'. Absolutely no flexibility. If there was something on at school, well that was it. Every school holidays she took off. The breaking point was when I was given the chance to represent my country at an international competition and she threw an absolute fit in the middle of the office because it was on school holidays.

She finally fucked off moved on, and I got a new colleague with children. She said 'ok, how do we work this to be fair?'. I said I didn't mind doing early shifts if she wanted to do morning drop off, she said that worked, booked her kids into after school care three days per week and had her husband change his working hours to pick up two days per week. If she had a school event on, she'd ask if I minded swapping to lates, and I always said yes, so she'd book her kids into before school care that morning or make her husband go in late. Before school holidays she always asked me if I wanted any days off before she put her request in.

Who do you think was the better employee and team mate?

No one is saying that flexible working isn't important, but other team members shouldn't always be picking up the slack 'because I'm a mum'.

And why is it always mothers? Why aren't women demanding their partners apply for flexible working to pick up some of the caring? Why can't men take some days off on school holidays? It's always women.

@mathanxiety, absolutely spot on in all your posts, and thank you for your emotional labour in replying to all of this.

I think the people flouncing at the lack of 24hr affordable childcare are missing the point.

If I wanted to study an evening class, id have to look for a job where the hours fitted. It might limit my options.
If I wanted to walk to work, I'd have to find a job where the location fitted. It might limit my options.
If I wanted to observe a religious day each week and not work, I'd have to find a job where I didn't work that day. It might limit my options.
If I wanted to dedicate my free time to my local Saturdays only needle felting with cat hair club, I'd have to look for a job that didn't require me to work that day. It might limit my options.

No ones life choices/circumstances trump anyone elses when it comes to job hunting. Of course reasonable adjustments should be made where the JOB allows it. Adjustments can't be expected where the job doesn't allow it without the responsibility falling onto another worker to step in for you on a routine basis. In a family business maybe, but strangers children are not others responsibility.

The thing is workers without children don't cease to have responsibilities or reasons they don't want to work all the unsociable hours

This. I have caring responsibilities towards elderly relatives that are as important as a parent's responsibility towards a child. I

I also have my own business and work long hours and that involves some weekend work. I employ people and part of their contract is to work some weekends because we work with professional sports people and sports matches are at weekends. I've had women want to work with my tea, but say they can only do the training sessions during the week and not the matches at the weekend. That's not good enough and so they are not employed.

And yes, I and everyone else, parent or not, are entitled to some time off for a social life.

You don’t need 24 hour wrap around childcare, people just need to be realistic.

I could never be a chef because I’m shit at cooking. I could never be an architect because even with a ruler I can’t draw a straight line. And as soon as I decided to have kids it meant that my working hours would be dictated by childcare provision. Children are a lifestyle choice and you have to accept that sometimes hours can’t fit round them with some jobs so you can’t have those jobs.

What is it with some people and interviews. I did one last week where everyone is applying on promotion.

One candidate said "Well of course Im already xx grade in reality - and my other department already agrees with this". Totally unwise to patronise the people interviewing you!

I don’t think challenging the Saturday working was wrong, it’s always a good think for an employer, even if it’s on a job advert, to be absolutely sure that there is no way around this. Often there is a way around it.

It’s the way it was done that wasn’t professional. I would have gone for a job and asked in the interview if the Saturday was fixed or if there was any flexibility. That’s okay I think. I would have been fair enough if they’d said no, sorry, no way around it.

The underlying issue is structural - our society is structured in a way that makes it harder for women with children to work. It's not about individuals or their choices.

But it's handy that so many women have bought into the narrative they've been fed that they should blame each other, and are intent on ripping each other to pieces instead of dismantling the structures causing the problems in the first place.

It's not coincidence that most men are not affected by the issues being discussed here - childless/free men vs men with children have barely come up. For a reason.

All these workplace rules like the hours of a "standard working week" were created by men for men. They're not innate to the universe. They haven't always existed like this. They can be changed.

Societies benefit when women aren't blocked from full and active participation at the same level as men. So there's nothing to lose by removing all these artificial barriers.

And as soon as I decided to have kids it meant that my working hours would be dictated by childcare provision. Children are a lifestyle choice and you have to accept that sometimes hours can’t fit round them with some jobs so you can’t have those jobs.

^ Structural barrier to keep women out of the workplace.

Your natural disposition towards a certain career is individual to you. Childcare provision is structural and can be changed.

How many men do you hear saying they can't pursue a career in a certain field because the hours clash with childcare? Hardly any, because women are still expected to carry the burden.

If it were men being disadvantaged the barrier would have been removed. It's not innate.

Marriage bar. "Marriage is a choice, if you want to get married then you have to accept you can't work anymore."

We changed that. Eventually. We can change this barrier too. But first we probably need to stop acting like we should all be grateful we're even allowed to leave our homes.

I don’t think challenging the Saturday working was wrong, it’s always a good think for an employer, even if it’s on a job advert, to be absolutely sure that there is no way around this. Often there is a way around it.

But the answer to that is not 'the child free employees should do all of the Saturdays and tough luck'. It might involve the role becoming a job share, it might mean paying overtime for someone to take on those shifts, or employing a junior (school or uni student) who actually wants those shifts to fit around school.

The person in the OP had an automatic 'oh no, not possible, I've got kids' reaction (despite it being in the job ad) and assumed that the employer would automatically agree that she doesn't have to do part of the advertised role because of her status as a parent. If she had come into the interview with a 'is there any flexibility?' and a possible alternative offer of how it could work, then she might have got a very different reaction. Two of my workmates got together and went to our boss with a job share agreement between the two of them, and it was granted, no issues, because they went in with a request and a workable solution.

Also discussion before children are conceived about child care.
When I went back to work we took turns when children were sick. It was not expected the one parent would use all sick leave. It generally depended on whose job has the most pressing need that day.
Husband did drop off and I did pick up. Getting head space around being a team and no ones contribution was more valuable than the others

Whatever about not having barriers to work for people with children, some businesses/workplaces do need people to work hours not covered by currently available childcare. You might be all for forcing businesses to be flexible at recruitment stage, but you would be pissed off if you went to the supermarket on a busy Saturday afternoon and they only had 10% of the tills open because they weren't allowed to turn down otherwise suitable candidates if they didn't want to work weekends.

It's bad practice to interview people for your job you're leaving

That's obviously nonsense, the leaver is in the best position to answer questions and recruit the best person to fit the role as they know it so well. I've recruited all of my replacements over the years bar one. Funny, but he's not working out and my former team keep messaging me to say how he's making a very poor impression.

@Anouk

When they told women they couldn’t be married and work 🙄 it was ridiculous because husband (grown ass adults) do not actually require ‘care’ - marriage itself is not undertaking the responsibility of full time care for another human being- but becoming a parent is exactly that!

You’re throwing around a lot of ‘men don’t do this’ as though it is being inflicted on women. I know a fair few mothers and each one of them wants to be the primary carer and wants to be the one taking a step back to focus on their child. I actually don’t know a single mother who would prefer their DP to take over. So maybe we should consider that not all women are fiery equality hungry feminists when it comes to their children and that actually this may be playing a big part in women not ‘beating the system’ and ‘modernising the workplace’.

As for social constructs/barriers - I’ve heard a lot of bashing tonight but not a lot of solutions. We scrap the 9-5 and everyone just works hours that suit them? With no semblance of organisation?

I had a conversation recently with a friend (about to return to her work after Mat leave- eldest just started school) and it went like this;
Her: I can only work between 9 -3 as need to drop off and pick up DD
Me: Before/after school club?
Her: DD gets upset as not settling in school well.
Me: Fair enough - Just go PT (27.5 hours) then.
Her: we can’t afford that - I have to be full time for us to meet bills!
Me: 🤔 Well that’s impossible
Her: i know, it’s so unfair being a mother

😬🤐

ARGH!!!!! (Tears hair out in frustration)
It’s not unfair! Mothers make it sound like they’ve been misold parenting - I don’t have a child right now and 99% of the reason is that my work/life is incompatible with providing for and looking after one. If you have them without considering the logistics - that’s you being irresponsible not ‘society’s fault’

@midnite I agree her response was not professional and I believe we should all be considered for flexible working, kids or not.

All for equality and diversity me.You work your hours,do your job,why would you be covering someone else's work unless they are personally going to pay you for it.

The problem isn't mothers killing you, Tinkety, it's employers.

That’s not true though is it, whether we like it or not, some industries need to be 24/7 such as medicine because you know, people can’t always have heart attacks during office hours only. That means unsocial working hours are inevitable - something people know full well when they go into such an industry - however according to you, when someone CHOOSES to have children, they shouldn’t have to work these unsocial hours anymore due to childcare & us childless women should pick up the slack & thus risk shortening our lives. I’ll give you the statistic again:

After 22 years, researchers found that the women who worked on rotating night shifts for more than five years were up to 11% more likely to have died early compared to those who never worked these shifts.

Instead of fairly distributing these shifts amongst all staff to minimize the impact to everyone’s health, please explain to me why childless women like myself should have to take on a disproportionate amount of these shifts & risk shortening our lives just so someone else’s childcare needs can be facilitated? Are our lives worth less because we aren’t mothers? Do you think it’s okay to knock years of our lives so that someone who has CHOSEN to work in an industry with unsocialable hours & CHOSEN to have kids has an easier time of it?

“But I am a mother I can’t believe you have NO flexibility for this.”

🤣🤣🤣

So are a lot of women and some of them work every weekend.

Then some planned ahead like getting an 8 to 4 job that never requires overtime or working weekends.

@tinkety I think the blame isn’t with parents though, we as a society do need, to a certain extent, to support parents and kids for all our future. It’s those kids that pay our taxes in old age.

I do think also though, that we as a society and employers need to consider things like night shifts and the health toll. No way should people be doing these too long full stop. Same with the long hours culture. This can be changed with unions, with legislation, with campaigns, with health and safety legislation etc.

You don’t ask, you don’t get.

We should ALL be asking for exactly what we want. The worst that can happen is they say no.

Asking for what we want is not letting down the sisterhood, FFS. 🙄

Canary I absolutely agree with you & I’m not blaming parents, my problem is with the assertion being made that childless people are some how less than & that our lives / time are not worth as much as those with children.

According to some posters here we childless folk should be picking up all the unsociable hours because other people’s childcare needs are more important & should come before our “night out” as if that’s the only reason why we might object to constantly having to do these shifts. My post was to illustrate that there are very real reasons, such as impact to our health, why one set of people should not be forced into certain hours to facilitate someone else’s choices.

Of course mother’s should be supported back into work however we have to be realistic, there are some industries that are 24/7 & unsocial hours are to be expected. I have no problem doing my fair share but sometimes there just aren’t enough people to pick up the slack. I mean what happens when everyone in a team are parents? Are these businesses supposed to come to a standstill after a certain time?

I would also hazard a guess that some businesses who are advertising positions which include Saturday / evening / unsocial hours are doing so in order to facilitate the parents they already have working for them & are trying to fill these hours because existing staff members can’t do them. For example, my company recently advertised a 5 day a week position from 2pm - 6pm because the lady who was covering these hours could no longer do it & changed her hours due to her childcare needs. Multiple people applied but wanted alternate hours (10am - 1pm or 11am - 2pm) due to their childcare needs however we specifically needed those hours covered. I have no doubt that to them (& outsiders) we must have looked like we were inflexible or non parent friendly but the simple fact was we were trying to accommodate a parent we already had. Sometimes there’s a maximum capacity of how much flexible working a company can offer.

It's not work life balance when you have children, Threadastaire. It's called taking care of all your responsibilities.

You had the misfortune to work in an industry where employees come and go and are completely undervalued. There is no incentive on the part of management to do anything to build up an adequate workforce to cover the amount of work the agency has on its books. If the employees with responsibilities outside of work could not be accommodated they would most likely leave and find work elsewhere.

There is high turnover of employees in the care sector and this doesn't matter - someone else will fill a departed employee's role very quickly. High turnover happens because employers do not hire enough staff to cover the hours needed and do not pay enough for employees to afford overnight childcare or childcare that would run past the usual 6 pm closing time for CMs, or weekends or holidays.

What Canaryyellow said about unions is absolutely true.