To agree that Tony Martin's murder conviction should be over turned?

[FeckingEll]

Just read an article that he is appealing against his conviction so his name is cleared before he dies. It always troubled me.

Putting myself in the position of living in a isolated farm which had been continously burgled, probably living in a state of hyper vigilance. Home invaded by a group of young men in the middle of the night. It was not right that he shot when they were not actually advancing towards him but he wouldn't have known that they weren't going to turn round and come back.

He didn't seek anyone out to kill them and he couldn't have been expected to have taken account of the age of the people who had invaded his home.

Much was made of him 'booby trapping' his house but who wouldn't so you could hear if anyone got in while you were sleeping?

The people responsible for the 16 year olds death were the adults who took him with them to invade someone else's house! It could easily have been Tony who was murdered. If someone invades your home in the middle of the night, you can expect that to be a potential outcome, no?

The way Tony was portrayed in the media was abhorrent especially as it has come out that he is on the autism spectrum.

?

He didn’t kill the lad with a lucky shot that should say

“I think once you break the law yourself you give up all rights to being protected by law.

If they weren't there, they wouldn't have got shot.

Simple as.”

There is a lot do focus on whether he deserved to be killed for entering Martins farmhouse but it’s not really relevant is it? He still murdered someone, that’s not under dispute, so why would his conviction be quashed? It was reduced to manslaughter even. He clearly killed the man!

“I think once you break the law yourself you give up all rights to being protected by law.

Like when you obtain an illegal firearm, for example?

... and shoot out your brother's window with it?

Yeh - pretty premeditated - he had already made threats to kill anyone breaking in (having suffered previous breaking)

Martin got a 12month sentence for possession of that illegal shotgun.

Wasn't it dark though? Apparently he lived in semi darkness with only one light on in the building when he was awake. There wouldn't have been any streetlights. I read it as he was firing towards the sound of them. I can imagine disorientation if just waking up. Adrenaline pumping. Hardly cold blooded murder IMO.

And no I have never entered private property with a Keep Out Private Property sign on the gate Lady. Certainly not with the intention to steal.

And having had a previously illegally owned firearm removed when your legally owned one was taken from you for shootingva hole in someone’s car for stealing apples.

Also a third illegal firearm was found in his house after the murder.

Then got arrested again end 2015 for illegal,possession of a firearm

Cross post with ex

Read the court judgment, feck - it really isn’t as you describe it (www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2001/2245.html)

Though Martin’s mental ill health does give a bit of context to it all and why the premeditated murder could be reduced to manslaughter

If he really was upstairs in the house asleep (which he wasn't), he'd have been more than disoriented on going downstairs, due to him having removed the bottom portion of the staircase and replaced it with a homemade ladder (one of his booby traps). Would have taken him a while to get there, wouldn't it? Funny how it took all that time for the boys to turn around and run.

No - reasonable force!

www.gov.uk/reasonable-force-against-intruders
oh and this one
www.cps.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/publications/householders-2013.pdf

The above links doesn't take in to account of Adrenaline Rushes (you know the "flee or fight hormone"), so basically, if someone breaks into my property/home, then they'll be leaving in a bag.

Don't like this post?, then fucking tough.!

Of course they don’t steam. You’re no different to the thousands of other homeowners who don’t murder burglars. Unless you’re already a violent criminal like Martin?

I think steam is fo' real.

Do you have a gun, steam, or other weapon to enable you to kill burglars ? Or was that just a figure of speech ?

Your premise about them thinking the property was empty doesn't explain why they had someone sitting outside in a 'getaway' car Lady. Why the need for a quick exit if they didn't think anyone was there?

With their previous convictions for violence, would they have started running if they hadn't heard the shots in the dark I wonder. I personally think Tony was lucky he had a gun.

Of course they don’t steam. You’re no different to the thousands of other homeowners who don’t murder burglars. Unless you’re already a violent criminal like Martin?

Oh, I won't be murdering, I'll be defending my family & property.

BTW, I'm not a violent criminal either.

But you claim you’ll kill a burglar

You won’t. People don’t actually do that in normal life, despite their childish bravado when thinking it through as some kind of tough man fantasy.

A gun?, hell no!.

But you claim you’ll kill a burglar. You won’t. People don’t actually do that in normal life, despite their childish bravado when thinking it through as some kind of tough man fantasy.

So what would you do? sit them down with a nice cup of tea with anice piece of cake & then counsel them?.

Of course you will!

Oh yes. Because they are the only 2 options. Sit them down with a nice cup of tea or kill them.

Meanwhile in the real world, the people who get burgled every day chase them out, disturb them, call the police, hide in a locked room, etc etc etc.

You sound extremely immature

However you feel about the conviction, I hope we can all (but one) agree that "Ithink once you break the law yourself you give up all rights to being protected by law" would be a nightmare state of affairs. Oh you illegally streamed a movie? bang

capri, it does happen sometimes, look at Henry Vincent.

Lots of people in the countryside have guns. They're also very far from help and don't have police nearby. I think what rural burglaries are like is outside the realms of a lot of MNers imaginations. It's not like you can scream blue murder and wake up the neighbourhood so you're sure they're gone. I suspect in the Martin situation, if he hadn't had a gun then he would have found himself tied up and being tortured to find out of there was cash there. Nobody would have been any the wiser.

These sort of things don't really happen anymore that much. Houses like that usually have far, far better security systems. The sort of people who burgled Martin don't really bother with the small fry of breaking and entering anymore. They're far more likely to be stealing heavy machinery which costs tens of thousands from the farm's yard instead. They do it with impunity still though, police rarely follow it up.

I don't think Martin's conviction for Manslaughter should be quashed. If the same thing happened today, he would probably be convicted of manslaughter and given a non-custodial sentence, which would have been about right in the first place.

What bothers me more, is that at the time, a lot of politicians said things about him that were clearly untrue - that he was a clearly dangerous man who would definitely reoffend violently (he hasn't) - purely to defend their political position.

He's actually a very vulnerable man, with Aspergers and quite severe mental health difficulties, who is living in hiding with a £60,000 bounty on his head. But he rarely gets any sympathy as the left love having him as their very own bete noire bogeyman. A rich white man who was shooting minorities for fun. It's just a shame that trope has very little to do with reality, but he still continues to suffer from that portrayal.

I'd rather kill them, so they can't commit crimes again.

Anyway, we will never ever agree.