To ask you to watch Panorama re Universal Credit

[longwayoff]

God, this looks grim already. Look what we're allowing to happen.

Steakandkidney

The problem with tax credits is that sometimes people are culturally poor, but financially ok. That stops people rising to the middle class jobs which require cultural knowledge and education. Middle class jobs require a person with middle class culture, music, food, education, literature. Even accents and language used.
If you've never had that, no matter how many kids you get benefits for, no matter how hard you try, there is a limit to what you can achieve

I had to read your comment 3 times as I couldn't believe anyone would seriously write that, I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt because surely you are joking to trying to make out that's what other people believe

But just in case you are ignorant enough to actually think that way I would like to make the following statement.

I am working class and proud of it, I left school at age 15 in 1972 and went into shop work, by 1986 I ran an Oxford Street shop with 15 employees and was made redundant, so I got another job, nice little working class job as a picker and packer in a print company, I am still there only now I am Client Services Director, dealing with the CEOs of some of the largest companies in the UK, most of my team have some sort of degree but I don't even have an O level or whatever they are called nowadays.

2 of my sisters still live in council properties and they both work, none of my family are on any sort of benefits including tax credits, apart from my dear old dad, my DH and my older sister who get the contribution based state pension with no other benefits like HB or PC

My own DS left school to train as a plumber and now has 2 businesses and employs 25 people, my nieces and nephews have good jobs, Estate Agent, Engineer, Electrician and my youngest nephew has just joined the RAF - all working class, no degrees , no student debt and 2 of them are already home owners.

Personally I always live my life the way my old granddad taught me he was a bakers rounds man who once told the mayor of his town to shift his Rolls Royce because it was blocking his way - Oldsu he said remember this 'you are no better than anyone else and no other Bugger is better than you' which I think is a better attitude than - you are working class without access to middle class culture, music, food, education, literature etc so don't even bother.

Oldsu
I am not referring to the working class.
I am referring to the underclass, the generations of families on benefits in poverty, with no aspirations. The millions of kids in high rise flats who think there is nothing to aspire to so whom instead get pulled into gangs, drugs or radical extremism.
Your family are workers. Although in council houses I find it surprising that they receive no tax credits whatsoever as the threshold is quite high.
You were brought up by working parents, you have working siblings. You are not the same as someone who never went to school, who was around antisocial behaviour, parents who were heroin addicts.
It is totally different.
It is exactly why top universities offer such financial support for disadvantaged kids. And in areas of massive poverty, the kind where young lads only know swear words and slang because they had to learn it to fit in, where they have stars as neck tattoos, tear drops, and stand in their tracksuits and spit to look hard, then that is the disadvantage I am referring to. They don't know the talk needed. It's called language capital, and a common sociological concept. Perhaps you haven't lived in an area where that is common. That isn't ignorance, and your situation is totally different.

No I haven't told them I am on benefits now. (I know some on this thread will think that is dishonest) but it is what it is. I posted upthread about my difficulties paying rent when I went on HB, but I did I, I made the back payments, & since my ex moved out there hasn't been a single month when the rent hasn't been paid
I totally get this, but your landlord's mortgage providers and insurance may have a clause where he cannot be covered for clients receiving benefits. Therefore, if there was a fire, he wouldn't be covered. Similarly he could get into trouble with the bank.

Not your fault but not his either.

Not telling the landlord you are on benefits is highly dishonest, his/her home could be at risk. If there's a fire, you get rehoused by the council, they lose their asset because the insurance won't pay out. Highly selfish and very me me me.

I can lots of reasons LLs don't let to HB tenants, their house their choice.

I’ve a friend who works for the DWP on the UC line and he says it is soulless and devastating work. He often wants to wave a non existent magic wand for people but can’t, all he can do is give them details of CAB, Food banks and empathise (as he has been in their situation too).

Our local council has been dreading the start of UC in the area as they know that many families will struggle . As the leader of the council said “if its a choice between feeding their kids and paying their rent then they are going to prioritise their kids....it’s what I would do too”. He wasn’t blind to the difficulties but scared of the consequences which have fully come home to roost since the advent of UC in this area.

The whole system is a mess and the most vulnerable people are suffering, the elderly, those with mental health issues, those with learning difficulties and those wi5h a mix of the above who may lead chaotic lives. They don’t cope with the lump sum once a month unless they have a keyworker to help them manage it,

I don't get this obsession with punishing the 'lower classes' for not doing better. Society needs people at the bottom in order to function properly. We need bus drivers, bin men, sweet sweepers, cleaners, childminders etc.

At the moment we have a system where working people are being forced to use to food banks to survive. In the fifth biggest economy in the world, that is shameful.

I've worked since I was fifteen years old. I can't afford a holiday, I can't afford to clothe my kids, I can't afford Christmas. I never have been able to, no matter where I am working or how many hours I put in.

Atm I am living on £800 p/m because the tax credits, in all their wisdom, decided my self-employment is a hobby to fund my self-employment (that is literally what it says in the letter) therefore I am not self-employed so they won't pay my working tax credits or my child tax credits. I guess they think my kids are a hobby too

I worked from home because my child needs me at home. I'm now looking for work out of the home but with a mentally ill fifteen year old I'm going to need a very understanding employer or I will end up having to leave my job before I'm fired for missing too much work.

This government have stripped social care to the bone. There is no-one to watch over my child when she is threatening to harm herself except me. I could call the crisis team but they would only be able to keep her until the immediate threat passed because they don't have the funds or space to help her.

Also, even if I find a job I won't get my tax-credits back. I need to wait until my appeal is heard before they will start paying me anything. That will take a minimum of six months. I can't claim UC because it hasn't been fully rolled out in our area. I can't claim JSA because the people at the job centre disagree that my self-employment is a hobby.

How anyone can justify what is happening in this country atm is beyond me.

Sanctions:You get a letter and then they make a decision. It doesn't happen instantly. If you have a reasonable reason why you didn't attend an appointment they will look into it: a hospital discharge letter, a letter from your GP etc. I do think claimants have a responsibility to look for work in return for their payments.

If only that were true.

I've submitted appeals for numerous sanctions, and have a 100% success rate. It's easy to have a "good reason", but that seems to cut no ice with DWP decision makers unless you can cite the regulations (and sometimes the department's own guidance to decision makers) and point out that the sanction decision is at odds with them. This applies even when it's blatantly obvious, like the 90-minute travel to work time (this applies to someone whose job was transferred from Gatwick to Heathrow, and whose shift pattern meant that on some days she would have to leave home before she got home from her previous shift).

If DWP decision makers were subject to sanctions for asinine and incorrect decisions, they might be a bit more reasonable.

@oldsu

Not that I agree with the principal or this it’s socially/ right but @steakandkidney isn’t wrong this does very much still happen.

Having worked with solicitors/accountants most of my adult life 99% fit a cultural background and are rather middle class!
Even those who have come from working class backgrounds (myself included) you couldn’t tell without them telling you. They’ve wiped their accents and ‘bettered’ themselves culturally with travel and hobbies...etc.

It’s not right but it’s how it (currently) is!

I suppose if you miss your appointments regularly they are less inclined to believe you.

One wonders why those couples would want to leave their children to be cared for by people they mistrust and despise so much!!

Most families have a great relationship with their childcare provider. Do you have evidence that says most dont?

I can't afford to clothe my kids, I can't afford Christmas. I never have been able to, no matter where I am working or how many hours I put in

Yet the choice was made to bring children into the situation regardless of that. With so many doing similar, something had to give and UC has measures to put in place to try and stop people taking advantage,

Having worked with solicitors/accountants most of my adult life 99% fit a cultural background and are rather middle class!
Even those who have come from working class backgrounds (myself included) you couldn’t tell without them telling you. They’ve wiped their accents and ‘bettered’ themselves culturally with travel and hobbies etc

I think there's a lot of truth in that. Children tend to copy their role models so if their parents had good careers and inspirations they will likely follow. The few that manage to escape from their poor background don't want to look back and change and their children will have a very different childhood. It takes drive, determination and hard work to escape and many simply go for the simpler option and make out it's all the governments failing.

My own dd and ds are both dyslexic, Ds has ADHD and dd ADD

Education has not been an easy ride and I worried what they would do when they left school.

Dd has always known what she wanted to do and I took her to ECA to grow that talent.

Ds on the other hand I think if I had left it up to the schools and himself to choose he could have easily fallen through the cracks. All be it we are reasonably well off.

Instead I spent many many hours every week with him discussing what sort of career interested him.

I even did his horoscope which because every career/job/money house indicated a certain element was present in those areas we looked at jobs involving that particular element and it led us to what he is in college studying now.
I think he has chosen correctly because from always struggling with school work and always being bottom of the class he now has an average score of 97.5% in his exams and practical assessments. He has been moved up to the year above as he just seems to have a natural knack for the subject.

I think a start would be for all schools introducing a careers lesson with extra time for one on one discussions about careers. Not run by someone who teaches another subject and who’s only agenda is to push people down the university route but by someone who will discuss with the individual their strengths weaknesses and what they want to do with any talent they have.
Even schools in posher areas have children leaving high school education, going to university, spending around £50000 and not actually knowing what they want to do with their life. Because no one sits down with them and offers them the world of choice that they have.

Teachers, in my ds’s case could only point him in the direction of A levels and a university degree which obviously wasn’t going to happen.

I think even in the poorer areas and those that are gang run if someone could show them an alternative that meant they could get out of the cycle they are in it could change things fundamentally.

If you have a person who decides what they want to do and knows they have to just even show that they turned up everyday to school on time and did their homework to get into the job/college etc to do what they have decided to do it would solve many many problems.

I think the days of “no DSS/ no housing benefit” are numbered:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/education-42979242

That’s because of the protected characteristic of “sex” but the same argument can definitely be made for disability. Perhaps also age if more elderly people are in receipt of housing benefit on lower incomes.

am referring to the underclass, the generations of families on benefits in poverty, with no aspirations. The millions of kids in high rise flats who think there is nothing to aspire to so whom instead get pulled into gangs, drugs or radical extremism

I thought the Joseph Rowntree Foumdation had disapproved the ‘generations of families on benefits’? And I certainly query your ‘millions of kids in high rise flats’. Millions?

Plenty of kids growing up in horrible circumstances aspire to be all sorts and achieve their dreams. I understand that some don’t. But then neither do some middle class, privately educated kids.

Well the JRF clearly don't walk round certain areas of every big city. Some have no life choices from birth. Even their names demonstrate that.

Having worked with solicitors/accountants most of my adult life 99% fit a cultural background and are rather middle class

They are middle class because they earn a middle class salary.

Ultimately how well do you know their wives?

Dp is public school educated and works in the City. I am from one of the worse council estates in northern England.

I know another couple. Husband Chartered Accountant. Wife was a stripper from a council flat in SE London and I know more examples.

The face people put on at work is not the same as at home.

Well the JRF clearly don't walk round certain areas of every big city. Some have no life choices from birth. Even their names demonstrate that

Didn’t you say you were an academic? The depth of your bigotry astounds me.

I thought the Joseph Rowntree Foumdation had disapproved the generations of families on benefits

No, the research looked for three generations where nobody had ever worked whatsoever. So families who may have done the odd day, week, month etc were all excluded. The question was designed to suit the research it would appear IMO.

They are getting middle class salaries because they had the middle class attributes to get them.
Why are the wives relevant? I assume Medow was referring to men as well as women.
Class isn't financial it's cultural. Homeless people can be MC.
You never lose those skills even in bad times.
Couples where there are a huge disparity are rare, but usually it's the woman which is lower class because men value attractiveness whilst women value status. Many men want someone to raise the kids, they dont want to compete and some are actively threatened by equally powerful women.

No, the research looked for three generations where nobody had ever worked whatsoever. So families who may have done the odd day, week, month etc were all excluded. The question was designed to suit the research it would appear IMO

Thank you. Interesting. So there must be stats that show the number of children who are growing up in never worked/barely worked families?

I think the days of “no DSS/ no housing benefit” are numbered

As was pointed out in the article it isn’t about discrimination it is about insurance and mortgage rules.

Until you can get the mortgage companies and insurance companies to change their regulations then the Landlord is just adhering to the regulations he has to abide by.

I noticed in the article that it said that a LL if he was able to take benefit claimants they could only get HB paid to them only after the tenant had fallen 2 months in arrears.

So in other words yes we can pay you direct but it is going to cost you the price of 2 months rent.

Who ever thought this ridiculous thing up needs their bumps examining.

There is so much not thought through to the ultimate conclusion.

A lot of btl properties are run making sometimes only £100 per month after mortgage, agency fees, house insurance, letting insurance, repairs and maintenance so in effect the LL would have to write off almost a years profit just to rent to a benefits claimant.

Or after 2 months the LL could start receiving the rent but the LL isn’t a charity and is not going to write off 2 months rent.

So they ask for the rent that wasn’t paid.

They take the tenant (who is already 2 months behind) to court driving up the costs. Eventually the tenant gets further and further behind because of court fees and the house gets repossessed.

Why can’t everything kick in at the start and save the crap.

I would hazard a guess that if it did they might be able to answer the phone in less time than the 40+minute wait time there is at the moment.

Everything is designed to be so complicated for the claimant but it is so complicated for those that are the other side of the table that they are struggling and no one has joined up or thought everything through to its final conclusion.

An example of the unjointed thinking is there does seem to be an attitude from the Government that BTL companies are some bad people who need running out of business.

Great they think. We will drive them into the ground. But I don’t know if they realise that a lot of the “council properties” are actually long term leased from BTL land lords.

Take those away and you have driven the BTL landlord out of business in this country. They will be alright as they will take their business abroad. But those who were living in the house are now looking to the council to house them and Bed and Breakfast I would think is a lot more than the rent they were paying.

I do wonder who comes up with all these ideas and why no one actually thinks this through.

Yes, I've heard that on here before (about LL's own mortgages) & I admit I am being dishonest to try & keep the roof over our heads while I can. For what it's worth I am now on the council list
FWIW being honest may do you a favour as he may need to evict you, and most likely will when he finds out that you've been on it a while. Then, you will be first priority for a council house.
While ever you are housed appropriately, you will never get a council house, so it's costing you more in the long run by lying.

"Most families have a great relationship with their childcare provider. Do you have evidence that says most dont?"

You do realize that some of those childcare workers will be the UC claimants that you despise. Thats what i meant.

Steakandkidney good attempt to back track but as far as I am concerned if you are saying you need to be middle class to get middle class jobs you are saying that working glass people cant aspire to that not just the 'underclass' and I find that offensive.

My younger sisters BTW are 58 and 60, when they got their councils homes the criteria was different I am going back about 35 years when you didn't need to be unemployed or on any type of benefits to get one.

I do know that no-one in my family are on tax credits because we were discussing the benefit system and people being migrated to UC and none of us (apart from the pensioners) get any form of state help, whether my sisters households are low enough to be entitled to TCs I don't know but I do know they don't claim

I do have experience in what you call the underclass I am in touch with several of my old school friends and a few of them live in households where no-one has ever worked, I was just lucky enough to have a dad who worked 3 jobs so we would have a better life.