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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask you to watch Panorama re Universal Credit

319 replies

longwayoff · 12/11/2018 19:33

God, this looks grim already. Look what we're allowing to happen.

OP posts:
Steakandkidney · 16/11/2018 11:55

A smarter argument would be that ‘certain’ professions who should earn more (like carers...etc) have their wages raised whilst shop workers and waitresses (the jobs that are synonymous with low pay and arguably less strenuous than a full time carer role ) be ‘minimum wage’ if you raised everyone it would make no difference long term

In which case how do those 'less strenuous' workers afford to live when their full time wages are not enough to pay rent? Should they be in poverty indefinitely, despite working, because of their job? Why should they be trapped in their position just to maintain the economy?
Just as your intelligent lecturer argued for the rising inflation think about this: If the Government can afford to pay out millions in tax credits in order to subsidise business owners and ensure the wealthy make huge profits because it is acceptable for them to pay low wages, then how would inflation occur if that money were redirected through employers paying more money-since there would still be the same amount of money to go round, it would just be distributed differently.
All academics are intelligent, I am one, and there will be a wealth of literature on the benefits of increasing the living wage which have an equally valid argument to the one you describe. It is indeed a complex situation and I agree that the system currently is not maintainable and has created a dependence-not choice-to rely on the welfare state. I myself am better off on benefits than working, and I have a PhD.
Leaving the benefits system is almost impossible for many, and to risk a 5 week wait when you have a roof to keep and children to feed is not a risk worth taking when you have little financial gain, only an increase in risk.
Tax credits were introduced to get people out of poverty. However if you give poor, uneducated people cash, they piss it away because they have no concept of saving. What should have happened is that money be driven into opening opportunities, education, childcare, life skills training and community services. That way people can learn to fend for themselves. Giving them cash has meant that unhealthy behaviours, unwise decisions and poor planning have continued and thus has maintained an underclass who are unable, individually en masse, to socially mobilise from the bottom.
As Medow says, the waitresses are stuck because they have no chance of improving the wages because as individuals they are seen as having little value. When someone is given that message then they adopt a fuck it attitude and stop trying at all.

Steakandkidney · 16/11/2018 11:58

Furthermore there was a recent documentary on the working homeless who slept rough or in shelters and worked full time. Why would anyone choose to work in that situation when they could have housing benefit paid, free prescriptions and food?

MeteorMedow · 16/11/2018 12:31

@steakandkidney

I actually don’t disagree with a lot of the points you make, and in your last comment you made them very well!

However, I’d be interested to know the percentage of lower income earners (including those on minimum wage) who don’t have children and aren’t entitled to any benefits.

I personally know quite a lot of young people working on minimum wage who get nothing in terms of benefits so raising minimum wage would mean they had substantially more money than before. Hence my comments about inflation.

Yes families already on benefits would simply have the same income but all from salary rather than benefit but this doesn’t address the large amounts of non benefit entitled low income workers who would also suddenly have more money. If you work at minimum wage should your wage only be increased if you have dependants?

I’m sure you an see the logic in this and why it would cause a difference in the economy

CondomsLubricantAndFlapjack · 16/11/2018 13:13

UC isn't responsible for MH conditions, nor is it responsible for claimants to choose Zero Hours jobs. These are thing people should be dealing with themselves. Nor is it responsible for debt repayments.

Sanctions:You get a letter and then they make a decision. It doesn't happen instantly. If you have a reasonable reason why you didn't attend an appointment they will look into it: a hospital discharge letter, a letter from your GP etc. I do think claimants have a responsibility to look for work in return for their payments.

However, I agree the 5 week wait and two-wage months should be reviewed.

HelenaDove · 16/11/2018 13:30

People arent choosing jobs that are zero hours That is all they are being offered.

you can only take a job if its offered to you So whats this choosing a job bollocks.

Are you saying people should go to job interviews and start threatening their employer to give them jobs? Are you saying they should turn detective and try to get something on their employer so they can blackmail their employer into giving them a job?

Should prospective employees start offering blow jobs at interviews?

people can only take the jobs that are offered to them.

Gilead · 16/11/2018 13:34

As for your point on sanction, people have provided proof and have been ignored, and you cannot prove the bus was late. Or how about when a person at the front of the queue in the job centre office held things up thereby messing up the timings, this too has been used to sanction folk.

MeteorMedow · 16/11/2018 13:41

@themachine

I appreciate that your debts were accrued under difficult circumstances but they’re still debts and still have to be paid. Expecting UC to ask ‘can you afford to pay back £30 a week?’ is not reasonable and 99% or people who are on UC would say no- UC usually means you’re struggling - you do have responsibility to pay back money you borrowed whether that’s easy or not.

Now if they’re slapping on charges and insane interest - that’s quite a different story.

HelenaDove · 16/11/2018 13:47

Gilead

Here is an experience of mine which i posted on another thread.

In the late 1990s both DH and i were signing on but had seperate signing on times on different days.

One day while signing on i was made to sign a form saying i would consider part time work,

a. DH wasnt asked this at all I asked him whether he had been each time he signed on after that.
b. This happened in the late 90s but the Sex Discrimination Act came in in 1975!

Ten years ago i was signing on again and secured an interview with a building society a 45 minute bus ride away. Interview was at 1pm and there were buses running every half an hour. So i made sure i got to bus stop at 11am. Plenty of time. 11 am no bus 11.30am no bus 12pm no bus. I panicked and walked straight across the road to the Job Centre
WHERE THEY HAD BEEN WATCHING ME FOR THE LAST HOUR THROUGH THEIR OPEN DOOR AS THE BUS STOP WAS A FEW FEET OPPOSITE THE JC!

i asked them what i should do and they had the temerity to accuse me of missing the bus even though the bastards had been watching me wait for a bus that didnt show for the last hour. Absolute cunts!

This happened in 2005. It was bad enough them gaslighting me the way they did but if i was signing on today and this occured i have no doubt that i would be sanctioned too

HelenaDove · 16/11/2018 13:48

the above post is mine but copied and pasted from a thread i posted on back in 2015

dontalltalkatonce · 16/11/2018 14:04

Sanctions:You get a letter and then they make a decision. It doesn't happen instantly. If you have a reasonable reason why you didn't attend an appointment they will look into it: a hospital discharge letter, a letter from your GP etc.

But they do, they do happen for no reason and instantly under UC. That's a known problem and happened on the Panorama show. Also the man who was being underpaid for 6 months and relying on food banks and the entire issue was the fault of UC's computer error.

And when they're 'looking into' why you weren't at your appointment they stop your benefits and leave you with nothing.

As for 'choosing' a job with zero hours, the only people I know who willing do this are people doing the job on the side, not as a means of survival because it's difficult to obtain normal living functions - like tenancy agreements and/or mortgages, car loans and credit - when you're on a zero hours or temp contract. I worked with academics who were not on perm contracts, year after year, and even they struggled to get mortgages.

HelenaDove · 16/11/2018 14:21

www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=23884&LangID=E&fbclid=IwAR3LD3BJ2v4tNYfXeJPt14qfL15P4pPqm6nWQGclbjAB3buOSH2kSFZ8a5o

UN poverty expert says UK policies inflict unnecessary misery

LONDON (16 November, 2018) – The UK Government’s policies and drastic cuts to social support are entrenching high levels of poverty and inflicting unnecessary misery in one of the richest countries in the world, a UN human rights expert said today.

“The United Kingdom’s impending exit from the European Union poses particular risks for people in poverty, but the Government appears to be treating this as an afterthought,” the UN Special Rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights, Philip Alston, said at the end of a 12-day visit to the country.

Almost all studies have shown that the UK economy will be worse off after Brexit. Consequences for inflation, real wages, and consumer prices will drive more people into poverty unless the Government takes action to shield those most vulnerable and replaces current EU funding for combatting poverty, he said.

In the United Kingdom, 14 million people, a fifth of the population, live in poverty. Four million of these are more than 50 percent below the poverty line, and 1.5 million are destitute, unable to afford basic essentials. After years of progress, poverty is rising again, with child poverty predicted to rise 7 percent between 2015 and 2022, homelessness is up 60 percent since 2010, and food banks rapidly multiplying. “In the fifth richest country in the world, this is not just a disgrace, but a social calamity and an economic disaster, all rolled into one,” Alston said.

“During my visit I have spoken with people who depend on food banks and charities for their next meal, who are sleeping on friends’ couches because they are homeless and don’t have a safe place for their children to sleep, who have sold sex for money or shelter, children who are growing up in poverty unsure of their future,” Alston said. “I’ve also met young people who feel gangs are the only way out of destitution, and people with disabilities who are being told they need to go back to work or lose benefits, against their doctor’s orders,” Alston said.

Successive governments have presided over the systematic dismantling of the social safety net in the United Kingdom. The introduction of Universal Credit and significant reductions in the amount of and eligibility for important forms of support have undermined the capacity of benefits to loosen the grip of poverty. “British compassion for those who are suffering has been replaced by a punitive, mean-spirited, and often callous approach,” Alston said.

“As a ‘digital by default’ benefit, Universal Credit has created an online barrier between people with poor digital literacy and their legal entitlements,” Alston said. “And the ‘test and learn’ approach to the rollout treats claimants like guinea pigs and can wreak havoc in real peoples’ lives.”

Local governments in England have seen a 49 percent real-terms reduction in Government funding since 2010, with hundreds of libraries closed, community and youth centres shrunk and underfunded, and public spaces and buildings including parks and recreation centres sold off.

“I was told time and again about important public services being pared down, the loss of institutions that would have previously protected vulnerable people, social care services that are at a breaking point, and local government and devolved administrations stretched far too thin,” Alston said. “The voluntary sector has done an admirable job of picking up the slack for those government functions, but that work does not relieve the Government of its obligations”.

“The Government has remained in a state of denial, and ministers insisted to me that all is well and running according to plan,” Alston said. “Despite making some reluctant tweaks to basic policy, there has been a determined resistance to change in response to the many problems which so many people at all levels have brought to my attention.”

During his visit, the Special Rapporteur traveled to nine cities in England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, and met with people affected by poverty, civil society, front line workers, and officials from a range of political parties in local, devolved and UK Governments.

“Government policies have inflicted great misery unnecessarily, especially on the working poor, on single mothers struggling against mighty odds, on people with disabilities who are already marginalised, and on millions of children who are locked into a cycle of poverty from which many will have great difficulty escaping,” Alston said.

Oliversmumsarmy · 16/11/2018 14:50

In a lot of cases UC might not have caused MH issues but giving someone a bundle of money each month when they are barely holding it together is a recipe for disaster.

Holding back the HB part of the payment to pay the LL would help in making sure that at least people had rooves over their heads.

The whole system isn't joined up and we have departments who operate separately from other departments.

There might be need to build council properties but before that why not allow LLs to be paid directly and fill their properties first.

Ultimately the people who report back on this are either writing reports that UC is writing for a tiny section of society and therefore should work for everyone or someone somewhere isn't listening.

Rixera · 16/11/2018 15:07

I'm really scared of being moved on to UC. Because of the idiotic system, our claim for housing benefit will have to be made again because even if nothing else changes in the household, if a student applies for HB with the working partner named as joint claimant they are not eligible, but if the working claimant applies with the student partner named, it is eligible. If I had known, my partner would have applied and nothing would have changed, but I applied last year. Now UC is being rolled out and he'll have to apply when I start uni, triggering our move onto UC.

I am disabled. I can study, I am really good at it and my relatively uncommon, severe & enduring MH condition is something I use to my advantage, and most unis when I've spoken to them can see things from my perspective. I'm otherwise not very employable. My condition precludes a lot of work. My plan is to stay in academia. My grades, tutor comment and so far uni offers are matching up with that.

How we will survive on UC is something that preys on my mind a lot. My partner was recently furious with me for saying realistically, if our savings run out during the transfer, I'd sooner turn to sex work than credit card debt. For him, he'd rather not think about it. I'm just sad that I have to.

Frequency · 16/11/2018 15:37

Choosing zero hours contracts Grin

I mean, it's not like Tesco, Sports Direct, Poundland, Amazon and other major employers insist on people taking either zero hours contracts or very low hours to protect themselves, is it?

And it's not like if you lose your job the DWP give you the opportunity to turn down jobs that may leave you in an even more precarious position than you were already in, is it?

I'm looking for work atm and every single one of the jobs I have applied to expect for Vets Now is contracted for 0-8 hours even though the hours offered are more than that.

That includes; care homes, Tesco, independent women's salons, independent barbers, Bet Fred, Supercuts, Card Factory and a local sweet shop.

So, tell me, where are all these 30 hours+ contracts available?

Ohsolomio · 16/11/2018 15:48

I'm currently unemployed and my GP has said I'm not fit to work for 3 months. It's a bloody nightmare. I've had to meet them twice, then I get weekly phonecalls. I won't get any of it until the 2nd of December. My daughter won't be getting a Christmas present as I presume the next payment will be the 2nd of January. They told me it covers housing benefit, but that I will have to apply for Council Tax assistance separately. So I applied for that, and then get another letter saying that I need to make another application for Housing Benefit & Council Tax support. It's a complete mess. And when you're struggling with your health, you're really not in a position to be filling out endless forms online. Everything has to be done online and just when you thing the application has gone through, they give you another thing to do. It's an absolute nightmare and it's going to be a horrible Christmas.

Ohsolomio · 16/11/2018 15:49

I really wish Christmas didn't exist.

SaveKevin · 16/11/2018 16:34

Did anyone see the dispatches program on Baby banks (like food banks but baby and children stuff), it was shocking.

I just don't know what is happening right now and what we can do about it. Life is getting harder yet the government are saying its getting better, but its not. Its just not.

CondomsLubricantAndFlapjack · 16/11/2018 16:51

The trouble is we only get the (same) story from the (same) posters.

I'm not very computer literate , so tell me Helena do you get up every morning and scour the Guardian internet for stories to cut. paste or save, or do you have software that searches for key words? It must take up most of your day?

ohreallyohreallyoh · 16/11/2018 16:53

ax credits were introduced to get people out of poverty. However if you give poor, uneducated people cash, they piss it away because they have no concept of saving. What should have happened is that money be driven into opening opportunities, education, childcare, life skills training and community services. That way people can learn to fend for themselves. Giving them cash has meant that unhealthy behaviours, unwise decisions and poor planning have continued and thus has maintained an underclass who are unable, individually en masse, to socially mobilise from the bottom

This is academic? Sweeping statements about ‘the poor’? Really? Just can’t get my head round it. Absolutely there is a need for investment in education, community facilities, life skills etc . In fact, anything that supports the building of community in its broadest sense. but the suggestion that ‘the poor’ need that kind of support en masse is...I have no words!

TheBigBangRocks · 16/11/2018 16:54

I can understand using a babybank if fleeing domestic violence whilst pregnant but feeding and clothing a child is a basic. Why choose to have a child if you can't or won't do that? Shocking behaviour.

DeloresJaneUmbridge · 16/11/2018 17:02

The poster who said a better idea would be for money being put into services which enable poorer and less educate people to better themselves by offering education, life skills and childcare made me laugh.

The Labour Govt did exactly that...they were called Sure Start centres.

A shame they’ve mostly been shut down eh? Shut down by....er.....this fucking shower governing us now.

MysticFlyTrap · 16/11/2018 17:04

Of course it contributes to mental health!

Gilead · 16/11/2018 17:06

Why choose to have a child if you can't or won't do that? Shocking behaviour.
Perhaps they didn't have a choice.
Perhaps circumstances changed.
Perhaps they hadn't had the help or education required to fully comprehend the decisions they were taking.

Steakandkidney · 16/11/2018 17:12

the suggestion that ‘the poor’ need that kind of support en masse is...I have no words
Perhaps I didn't vocalise it well.
I'm not being derogatory at all. I live on a council estate.
Most of the people here are what would be described as an 'underclass'. Mostly long term unemployed. There's a Jeremy Kyle 'look'. People's faces are rough, demonstrative of a rough life. Drug and alcohol use are rife. Poverty is common, a lot have dirty, smelly homes and loads of pets-the one unconditional positive in their lives. Loads have 5+ kids and still pregnant. We have a surestart.
It's a lovely community, and people are amazing. But it would take a shit ton of help and support to get most people to a job which meant they were not reliant on any kind of welfare. People have had kids taken into care, and still getting pregnant.
These are the people, which I referred to en masse, as being unable to rise above the conditions. There is a real, tragic, acceptance that this is how it is, and a definite concept of the government/DWP as 'them'. 'They've' not paid me, 'They' don't care.
It would take a humungous intervention to help these people, because they don't realise that there is any agency in life, false class consciousness personified, and the belief that for their whole lives, they are at the bottom.
It takes an absolutely exceptional person to rise from that, ideally a gifted child, who receives massive support from school, a kind of Billy Elliot effect.
That is not a sweeping statement, but an observation. It certainly isn't an insult to the poor.

Ohsolomio · 16/11/2018 17:20

Wow.

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