To be suspicious about the validity of this Will?

[Blueberryhill123]

I probably should've posted in Legal but posted here for traffic.
My Mum and I were discussing Wills recently, when the subject of my Grandfather's Will came up. (My GF passed away in 2000, and my Mum was excluded from his Will). She'd never received a copy of the Will and only briefly glanced at a typed copy of GF's Will just after his funeral, when my Aunt quickly showed it to her.
Out of curiosity I recently decided to download a copy of my GF's Will, but now I've done so it's playing on mind that something doesn't seem right with it.
GF's Will is home made and handwritten (done in 1987) and the Executor and sole Beneficiary (apart from us six Grandchildren) was my Aunt, which we already knew. I was, however, surprised to learn there was no mention at all of my mum in the Will, not even to say why she'd been excluded.

Long story short, there'd been a family rift where mum didn't see her dad for a few years prior to and after the Will was written, although in the last few years of GF's life the rift was healed. My mum never spoke of Wills with my GF (her mum had passed away years before) and accepted the terms of the Will when my GF passed away. After all, the Will had been done and not altered.

Six of us Grandchildren (my sis and I and my Aunt's four dc's) each received £2,000 from our GF's Will. My Aunt was bequeathed GF's house, boat, caravan, car and 'all the rest of the property he owned'.
The Will may very well be perfectly legal, but, I'm suspicious that the witness signature's look extremely similar by the style of writing, punctuations, same pen pressure, slant etc.
The witnesses are also my Aunt"s friends.

I showed a copy of the Will to my Mum, who recognised the wording of the Will as my Aunt's, which I'm presuming is allowed, as long as my Grandfather signed it. My mum is also quite suspicious of the witness signature's. Mum also couldn't imagine my GF wanting to have my Aunt's friends as witnesses.
Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but my Aunt has benefited hugely (I believe my GF also had a substantial amount of money in his accounts from receiving a great pension and never really going anywhere to spend it, which my Aunt also had) and I can't help wondering if something is amiss. Mum is equally suspicious.
Any advice appreciated.

If you contact the witnesses rather than go down the handwriting comparison line, ask them where they signed the document too (there are strict rules about signature of wills and unless both witnessed your grandfather signing - ie were both in the room at the same time and actually saw him writing - the will is invalid). This question may well catch them out, because I wouldn't be at all surprised if your aunt took the already signed document to them to sign rather than them actually witnessing the signing themselves, given what you say about them being her friends etc. But I guess if your grandfather was round at her house and the friends were there - then more plausible. But that would be a completely different ground for invalidity (or a second one).

nonever
The Will my Mum saw had more or less the same wording as the one I've downloaded. We're now wondering if my aunt showed her this so my Mum wouldn't realise my Gf's Will had also been drafted by her.

goodbyestranger
I really wouldn't be surprised if the Witnesses had signed without my Grandfather being present either.

If, and it is an if, the witnesses did actually sign the will and signed it without your grandad being present, then the 3 people alive who know that are the two of them and your aunt- are they likely to admit to that given they would have acted fraudulently?

Who does the will name as executors?

Where was the will kept until your grandad's death? I mean was it lodged with a solicitor?

Was there a previous will? If so what did it say?

Lulu my point was - since so many people are unaware that both witnesses have to be present at the same time that the will is signed - that a casual question to one or other witness could reveal all that the OP needs. Asking 'Hey did you collude to defraud my mum?' - I agree, probably not going to be productive.

You could ask the witnesses, notwithstanding that them telling you they did witness it isn't going to allay your suspicions, since why would they tell you they were lying? I don't know if I'd bother though, unless you have good reason to think there was enough money and enough of it is left to make a legal challenge worthwhile. I mean what are you going to do if you do find out it was fake, your aunt fiddled your mum out of like 25k and it's long gone? You'll just feel lots of impotent rage. Ignorance might be bliss.

Although I must say, your reasons for doubting it don't sound very convincing. If your aunt was trying to get away with a dodgy will, she'd be an idiot to have the signatures looking visibly alike.

It looks like the aunt organised the writing of the will and got her friends to be witnesses. Still a valid will if he signed it though. I don't see any reason to doubt it's a genuine will. (The witnesses could be asked if they signed it, so it seems unlikely that the risk of forging their signatures would be taken.)

It's been 15 years since I first wrote a will, and I still don't have one, because of the hassle of getting it witnessed. So if the beneficiary were motivated enough to get some of her friends round to act as witnesses, that would be helpful.

Grabem
IF my Aunt fiddled my Mum out of her inheritance, it'd be a damn sight more than 25k I can assure you!
My GF's house is still in her name and she rents it out.

Firesuit it absolutely is not a valid will if the friends signed to witness in any way other than being in the room together with the grandfather as he signed it. Given what the OP says about their being the aunt's chums it may well be the case that the proper conditions weren't satisfied. A carefully worded question could establish this, but the witness would have to be caught off guard. I would expect the chances were that they thought everything was completely above board, so shouldn't be too cagey. I do think it very likely that the aunt asked them to sign elsewhere, so I think the OP has two avenues to explore (validity of testator's signature, compliance with rules about witnessing).

Well that's fine OP. My point is, ascertain the value of the estate (should be publicly available if she took out probate) and whether you think any could realistically be left. The latter would be difficult I know, but do it to the best of your ability based on what info you have.

Then work out whether you think it would be worth pursuing the matter if you were to find evidence of dodginess. I would personally do that even before I got any handwriting analysis, because I wouldn't want to know about anything untoward if the legal costs were likely to be more than the estate was worth.

If the will is fraudulent the estate will be divided according to the most recent valid will or failing that, the intestate rules. Your aunt may therefore still be entitled to a large part of the estate.

Half a house almost anywhere in the country is still a sizeable amount but fraud - especially within a family - is not on, even if the net gain is small. There's a matter of principle in these situations.

My dads MIL died and left her estate to her daughter. She had had nothing to do with her son for years and he was the sole beneficiary of his fathers will. The son contested his mothers will (as he had gambled away his inheritance from his father and was now skint )so obviously my dad appointed a solicitor. The witness's signatures were examined and deemed to be too similar to the MIL's signature. The witnesses had since died. A handwriting expert was sent to the witness's daughters house, asked if that was her mothers writing, when she said no the will was deemed null and void.The case fell apart after having cost my dad thousands in solicitors fees. So yes if you think the signatures are not legitimate then by all means contest them.

Speaking as a solicitor who's seen people make decisions about legal matters based on principle goodbyestranger, I don't generally recommend it.

Also, virtually every house in the UK was worth much less in 2000 than it is now. As an example, the ones near me were going for under 50k at that point, and I live in a cheap but not stunningly cheap area (same houses are about 150k now, so that's much less than the UK average but equally there are also oodles of cheaper places).

OP has clarified that her mum's share would've been significantly more than 25k but even so, you don't seem to realise that it isn't a question of simply small gains. It is absolutely possible for legal challenges of estates to cost more than the value of the bequest. It's also possible for them to cost less but for the bequest to have been spent and there be no way to get it back. It is very definitely possible that this will be a net cost to OPs mum, especially as there's no guarantee the police are going to take much interest in historic fraud allegations.

Which is why I'd advise getting an idea whether there's any realistic financial benefit to be had (ie by working out the value of the estate and whether any might possibly be left) before deciding whether to investigate further. Obviously if we're talking about a mansion in Mayfair, there's more chance of some of that being left than if we mean a 3 bed semi in an inexpensive suburb.

I think the OP should also remember that the burden of proof is much higher in criminal cases. Even if you win the civil case (in which case it is possible under the intestate rules the aunt will still receive everything), it is likely there will not be enough evidence for a criminal prosecution.

Have a look at the limitations act. I would presume that you are well out of time.

Good point Racecar, I think it's 6 years for fraud.

No time limit for fraudulent wills

Could you have a investigative appointment with a solicitor and see what they advise?

GrabEm the house is unsold so its value in 2000 isn't relevant.

I'm not clear why criminal law is relevant. I think the civil case is the only thing that concerns OP.

Thanks for all your responses. I'm working so will read properly later.
Just quickly, my GF must've had a substantial amount of money in his savings accounts, he had a great pension and saved every penny.
In the Will, am I right in presuming that financial assets would also come under 'property'?. Reason I ask is that there was no specific mention of my GF"s bank accounts.
Obviously my Aunt has had access to these as the executor. I'm presuming she's benefited nicely from my GF's money as well as his house, car etc.

It just seems very suspect that my GF would exclude my mum, although I know this does happen.

Ah, it hasn't been sold? Ignore that bit then, but the point about the worst case financial scenario not simply being a small net gain is still very relevant.

OP do you know if she took out probate? You can find out.

Yes all his accounts would be included in the term 'property', usually. But if it was a home made will and referred only to 'the property known as 1, Foxglove Drive' then no. But in that case, as you say, what happened to all the additional funds?

OP cases don't need to cost a crazy amount, you just need to keep a tight rein on the solicitor. It's possible just to get help with the procedural aspects of going to court and to represent yourself if you feel confident enough. That's why I suggested getting the groundwork done first: handwriting analysis and/ or asking the witness for info about the circumstances of the signing (and keeping evidence of that conversation, if it proves fruitful). If you go to a solicitor first, what can they say? Nothing very helpful, without more proof.

Yes it seems that it went through probate, there is another print off I downloaded (the grant), but that also seems strange.

It says something like it's clear from the application that my GF's estate did not exceed a certain amount, and that the net value was below say '£70,000 (not putting the exact amount in case my aunt is reading this!), but I know for certain my GF"s house (alone) at the time would've been worth more than £70;000.

That's apart from his financial assets. I'm confused by that one as well.

If your mum and aunt don't have a relationship, then talk to a solicitor.