To be suspicious about the validity of this Will?

[Blueberryhill123]

I probably should've posted in Legal but posted here for traffic.
My Mum and I were discussing Wills recently, when the subject of my Grandfather's Will came up. (My GF passed away in 2000, and my Mum was excluded from his Will). She'd never received a copy of the Will and only briefly glanced at a typed copy of GF's Will just after his funeral, when my Aunt quickly showed it to her.
Out of curiosity I recently decided to download a copy of my GF's Will, but now I've done so it's playing on mind that something doesn't seem right with it.
GF's Will is home made and handwritten (done in 1987) and the Executor and sole Beneficiary (apart from us six Grandchildren) was my Aunt, which we already knew. I was, however, surprised to learn there was no mention at all of my mum in the Will, not even to say why she'd been excluded.

Long story short, there'd been a family rift where mum didn't see her dad for a few years prior to and after the Will was written, although in the last few years of GF's life the rift was healed. My mum never spoke of Wills with my GF (her mum had passed away years before) and accepted the terms of the Will when my GF passed away. After all, the Will had been done and not altered.

Six of us Grandchildren (my sis and I and my Aunt's four dc's) each received £2,000 from our GF's Will. My Aunt was bequeathed GF's house, boat, caravan, car and 'all the rest of the property he owned'.
The Will may very well be perfectly legal, but, I'm suspicious that the witness signature's look extremely similar by the style of writing, punctuations, same pen pressure, slant etc.
The witnesses are also my Aunt"s friends.

I showed a copy of the Will to my Mum, who recognised the wording of the Will as my Aunt's, which I'm presuming is allowed, as long as my Grandfather signed it. My mum is also quite suspicious of the witness signature's. Mum also couldn't imagine my GF wanting to have my Aunt's friends as witnesses.
Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but my Aunt has benefited hugely (I believe my GF also had a substantial amount of money in his accounts from receiving a great pension and never really going anywhere to spend it, which my Aunt also had) and I can't help wondering if something is amiss. Mum is equally suspicious.
Any advice appreciated.

Blanched has it right in the very first reponse on this thread

We might well be on a hiding to nothing Ariadne. The reason I'm questioning the Will now is because I've only just seen the official Will.

My mum never saw it at the time. She saw something completely different. How are my suspicions coming no way near to alleging fraud?
The witnesses signature's look so alike, and IF (note I said IF) either one or both of those signature's have not been signed by the people whom they're meant to have been signed by, that would deem the Will invalid.
I also know that it's legal for witnesses to be friends btw.

Have you ever seen the handwriting of 2 Americans? They are almost identical due to the way they are taught at school. Ditto elderly people who in my experience tend to have very similar handwriting.

I think they probably do have a similar style of writing, but in this case, the witnesses are English and not elderly.

OP any forgery would be an outrage. Could you find a signature of your aunt's? Or ask her to witness a document for you if you don't have existing handwriting of hers? And then go to a reputable handwriting expert who is capable of giving expert evidence in court.

My brother has had to do something similar to prove our grandfather didn't sign a particular document during the war (not relating to a will or family feud, but even so - much longer ago), and this expert evidence was accepted to show the document had been forged.

If the handwriting expert doesn't find the two signatures were written by the same person then your aunt need never know and you and your mum won't have nagging insidious doubts.

goodbyestranger my Mum and I no longer see my Aunt, but my mum will see if she has anything with her sister's handwriting on.
I agree that an analyst would be a good idea, will probably be expensive though!, and I think it's best if my Mum gets legal advice first.

I don't think the handwriting analysis would cost more than an initial consultation with a lawyer though OP. In your situation I'd want to get my duckies in a row before going through the legal stuff at a minimum of £100 an hour. It might also be good for both of you, to know with more confidence one way or the other.

I think you're right goodbyestranger, there's probably not much point in seeking legsl advice if the signatures are believed to be above board.
I'll put it to my Mum and let her decide what she wants to do, thanks for your advice

My dad, an only child, spent some little while estranged from his mum (his dad died when he was a baby) as he had the temerity to get married and she didn't like women. She rewrote her Will disinheriting him and leaving everything to her neighbour. Dad and his mum were reconciled within a year but the Will was never changed. He got nothing. He didn't contest it though.

Stop right here.

There was a thread on here that went on for a number of years where the OP's brother had blatantly forged a codicil to the parent's will that practically cut out the OP - gave them a few thousand out of hundreds of thousands, with the rest going to the brother. But despite handwriting experts agreeing that it was a forgery, the OP wasted tens of thousands trying to go through a legal process, only to ultimately be advised that she'd need to spend tens of thousands more with limited chance of success, and the money was mostly gone anyway. It was an absolutely heartbreaking and rage-inducing tale, but sadly contesting wills just lines lawyers' pockets. Life will be better for you and your mum if you just try to forget you ever noticed this.

Found the thread - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/ethical_dilemmas/1524721-Being-left-out-of-a-will-feeling-blue-and-confused - I was wrong, it wasn't tens of thousands more, it was a quarter of a million more.

Honestly, I'm not even sure you should read it, it's painful to read.

Thanks for the link, I've read it and it's awful what this lady went through.
As a pp said, why should it be so expensive to take someone to Court when fraud is involved? It's ridiculous! and it makes it easier for fraudsters to get away with tampering with Wills, knowing it's costly and unbelievably difficult for an innocent party to challenge it!

My dad, an only child, spent some little while estranged from his mum (his dad died when he was a baby) as he had the temerity to get married and she didn't like women. She rewrote her Will disinheriting him and leaving everything to her neighbour. Dad and his mum were reconciled within a year but the Will was never changed. He got nothing. He didn't contest it though.

But there would be no legal grounds to contest it surely?

Your mum could of contested it at the time, not on the grounds of possible forgery (as you hadn’t seen it and didn’t suspect this at the time) but on the grounds that it was unfair as she had a good relationship with her DF at the time of his death, and the will had actually been made several years prior to his passing.
I’m really not sure you would get anywhere now, even though you have your suspicions about the validity of the will. Too much time has passed sadly.
What could a court do? Order your Aunt to pay your DM money? How? With what?
Sorry op, but it would be a very lengthy, frustrating and expensive process that would probably end fruitlessly.

Poptart
My Mum didn't contest it at the time because she felt that, if her own Father didn't want to leave her anything, then she wouldn't want any of his estate.

The Will she saw was different to the one I downloaded, this is why we're suspicious that maybe something is not quite right.

Yes I can understand that op.
Have you spoken to your Aunt about any of this? What does she say?
This has the potential to completely blow up of course, causing animosity and possibly a rift that cannot be reconciled. Are you and your DM prepared for that?
You have to weigh up the pros and cons of perusing this. Lots of pp have advised that you are unlikely to get anywhere with this after so much time has passed. Only you know whether the consequences of a family fallout will be worth it.

Poptart
There's already been a family fallout, over something unrelated and something my Aunt did. This was a few years ago.

My Mum, sister and I have nothing to do with her, or my cousins anymore. My Aunt has shown she isn't to be trusted, and now I've seen her true colours it wouldn't surprise me if she did attempt to falsify my Grandfather's Will.

Aridane on the same grounds that Poptart has outlined. That he was and had been on good terms with her for years by the time she died, that he was the only child (the only living relative) and that his mum had not spoken to her neighbour after a row about 8 years before her death.

But unfairness isn’t a ground for,challenging a will

(I don’t think it ism- hence the importance of wills being kept up to,date to reflect the testator’s intentions)

why should it be so expensive to take someone to Court when fraud is involved?

Court is, unfortunately, expensive regardless of the reason for being there (mostly because you need to pay lots of people for their expertise, and those people studied for years to get that expertise, and have huge overheads themselves). That’s why alternative (cheaper) forms of dispute resolution are so good - albeit sadly unlikely to assist in this case.

I wonder if its possible that the typewritten document your mother saw wasn't the will itself but the confirmation from the executor of the distribution of the estate? I don't know the proper terms but I know I've seen typewritten notes in the family when a relative has died and the relative executing the will has written round to their siblings to give a summary of the estate and how it was split. eg Granny left 10000, we spent 1000 on the funeral. She left bequests of 100 to each of her 10 grandchildren and the rest divided equally between us so the remaining 8000 divided by 4 = 2000 each and here's your cheque.

How much money are you talking about here? Because unless its multi-millions this will probably cost you too much to dispute. And even if it is, after eighteen years you are probably on a hiding to nothing. Your mum should have raised this at the time, its way too late now to seek redress unless you have very deep pockets and a bloody good case.

I would contact the witnesses and just ask them. Job done. It will save you time and money in the long run with Solicitors fees.

If your gf consulted your aunt she may well of asked a couple of friends to witness it, after all it cannot be a family member or beneficiary. No mention has to be made as to why someone is excluded. Even if your aunt wrote it, as long as your grandfather was in sound mind it is valid.

It's very unfortunate but I caution about whether it's contestable, a specialist solicitor may be willing to advise whether it's worth pursuing but it won't be cheap - do you have a relationship with your aunt, could you discuss it without world war 3 breaking out?