AIBU to not understand the english attitude towards the NHS?

[EggplantsForever]

Every time someone criticises the NHS, every time someone asks for better health service, or to have some not absolutely vital procedure (like IVF) covered, or to be referred to a specialist there is a barrage of voices here calling them "ungrateful", proclaiming that "the NHS is on it's knees", etc.

I just find it so peculiarly English and I have very hard time understanding it! Perhaps you can explain?

I mean, it is almost as if people feel that someone very nice and kind has given the English people the free health service, and they should be eternally grateful and not mention its shortcomings or it will be taken away. But the NHS is in fact paid by your own taxes! It belongs to you. And you have full right to criticise it and expect it to work just as well as other free healthcare systems in the world. Which it doesn't. It actually compares pretty badly even to the countries that spend less money per capita on health. I have a feeling it is actually badly mismanaged.

For example, look at this table en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_quality_of_healthcare
UK is at the bottom at most of them, below Portugal/Spain, Israel, and Slovenia who spend significantly less money on healthcare.

From my personal experience, having lived in a country with free healthcare, you could go to a gynaecologist without referral (and women were advised to see one for a yearly check up). Skin specialist did not require referral either. Referral to any other specialist took me on average two weeks. IVF was available to everyone for free. The list of cancer drugs included drugs that are not funded in the UK. etc And people still routinely complained about their healthcare. Which they had full right to do, because it was funded by their own taxes.

So I am just not sure why is everyone so afraid to criticise the NHS? It is actually one of UK's biggest problems. And why does everyone eternally fear that it will be "taken away"?

Why don’t posters name these countries that apparently have vastly superior health systems? Could be useful for argument’s sake.And not as though we would identity the poster...

I LOVE the NHS. We have had nothing but excellent care as a family who have and are using it almost monthly as dd has severe SN (a few dodgy experiences but complained and was dealt with ). I will not say a single bad thing about the free healthcare in the UK. If you have been to a country that has nothing to offer you if you have no money. You will appreciate what we have here. Yes it needs work in some areas. But with the pressure it’s under. I’m amazed at how they are still going.

Lousummer , IVF is not an illness nor life threatening ! The NHS is for sick people who need medical help for huge numbers of conditions ! I'd rather the limited funds were spent in treating sick people especially children .

@nolongersurprised @HoppingPavlova
(Hope those tags work as I never seem to be able to reply to anyone)

I’m currently living in Australia and all the health professionals ever go on about is the price of everything. Australians I’ve met say it’s the same for them, so not just because I’m English. Also Aussie’s I’ve met have been very proud to point out that everything in their health system costs money compared to the NHS. I had to enlighten them that we pay for the NHS through taxes and that prescriptions are not free unless you’re a child or elderly etc.

What is your actual complaint? I’m assuming you are after a need that has not been met?

Also

Long Live The NHS

"Why don’t posters name these countries that apparently have vastly superior health systems? "

Odd question. Plenty of countries have been mentioned. Are you not reading the thread?

you just need to read the threads about people left in pain without help to know that things are bad.
tooth pain - sorry a&e can't help and dentist has 2 emergency appointments per week...

@AuntieFesterAdams
Me and my dh literally had our midwife appointment interrupted by a consultant asking to see us in their office. We were perplexed, turns out she wanted to talk to us about cost of everything and ask us about our insurance etc. So I would say it’s very much high up on their priority list. Not saying it’s a bad thing, but it is definitely a thing

I think I feel so defensive because the criticisms are often very personal and specific. I'm a GP and most of my friends are doctors or nurses and I see how hard everyone is working, how low morale is and how they are sacrificing so much of their own lives to help others. So it naturally makes me defensive when complaints are made about specific doctors or nurses when I know they are probably on their knees with the pressure. And what is actually to blame is the set up of the NHS, funding, issues with social care etc. etc. So that's why I think it is so polarising. If you are in the system you have empathy for the staff and if you're a patient you are witnessing how haphazard and inconsistent the care is (no specific person's fault)

Would you go to a&e with tooth pain?

People who won't hear anything negative said about the NHS are (in general) working for the NHS. And that is one hell of a lot of MNers. Hence the lack of truth.

I would expect medical treatment of the pain. if no dentist appointment is to come by where else would you go?

X post, Rainbow. What you need to do is this: be a whistle-blower.

Also, as you know, doctors get far better treatment from their colleagues than ordinary mortals.

The NHS should not be beyond reproach and should be open to challenge but now should we assume that another type of healthcare would automatically solve everything.

I used to live in a European country which had both private and state insurance, dependent on income, and whilst I didn’t use either for anything major I did use both and there was a difference with better treatment/facilities for those in the private scheme.

I don’t have first hand experience of many countries, besides U.K. and Italy, but to give you an example I had one kid in each country and the 2 systems could not be more different. Both free, though.
In reality I’d say the Italian system is not really free but means-tested, which is not something the UK government would openly propose (yet). In essence, in Italy there’s a certain % of contribution to the health system mandatory with your taxes, and the GP service is free, with a dedicated pediatrician for kids from birth to 14yo. Then as a citizen you pay a “ticket” for each particular procedure (say ie a blood test would be charged up to 30€ if it includes many things, or 8 if it’s a basics one. An X-ray would be 25, an MRI 70 etc etc). If your family can prove that you fall into a particular range of net income, which is calculated taking into account your salaries, your basic living expenses, the number of people your income need to support, if there are special needs, disabilities etc...then you get reduced rates or all free. If you are certified with a cronic disease you’re entitled to free treatment but often there are illogic requests to prove yearly that you still deserve it (I have a friend with both kids diabetic type1, and every blipping year she has to go through the medical examinations....if only diabetes would disappear on its own!!!). So altogether...in Italy the system is more cumbersome and the admin drives you crazy. Some cancer treatments are more easily covered, though, and some places don’t blink, even if it’s to add “only” 6 months to your life they’ll pay the 6k a month for you (there’s a certain level of devolution to regions and hospitals). The U.K. system is much better in terms of palliative care (you can dream of finding an hospice in the south of Italy! Most people die in a ward surrounded by plenty of other patients) and also care homes are almost non existent, same as respites, unless they’re organised by religious charities.

It’s is very difficult to make comparison unless you’ve seen the whole spectrum....antenatal care or children care may be excellent in one country but not so much the care for elderly. Emergency care or treatment of chronical conditions can be widely different.
I would not abuse the nhs nor idealise it (I had excellent and definitely substandard experiences in the exact hospital!). But I’d recommend that you read and look at the details of alternative systems before you judge. And if you know how to do once the EHIC card expires in march19, please let me know...

@redsummmershoes and would you call an ambulance for your tooth pain?

arudeterribleperson
Whistleblowing isn't the answer really as no one higher up is listening (take the recent Chris Day case) Also in my situation, I'm a GP. What am I going to say? 'No I'm leaving at 5 because I'm paid until then' That would be leaving loads of paperwork with something potentially urgent on there and the only people that would suffer would be the patient (and me as I'd get sued!) So I have no one to report it to as all the doctors in my practice are working equally hard and long. In hospitals now, the juniors can exception report if they work longer than contracted hours but I've heard nothing really comes of it and they are frowned upon for reporting things (usually by seniors) It feels sometimes that we can't do right for doing wrong and I think that's why criticism feels so personal. And people have to come up with a good alternative which I suspect is either in reading tax or running partial insurance type schemes. Because the fact is there are simply not enough resources or staff to deal with today's population.

raising tax that should have read

I have friends who's parents settled here , had their families, earned their livings and then retired back to whence they came - having annual holidays back to the UK for "Eyes, ears and teeth" appointments - NHS funded and still better than they could get back in their own birth countries.

The UK health system is also still choice based. BUPA. Nuffield. Prudential Vitality. ETC. or NHS. Take your choice!
The NIS Contribution also funds your pension. You can take your choice on that too.

You can choose to live as they do in the USA or Australia - pay for it yourself - it's your choice.

“I’m currently living in Australia and all the health professionals ever go on about is the price of everything. Australians I’ve met say it’s the same for them, so not just because I’m English. Also Aussie’s I’ve met have been very proud to point out that everything in their health system costs money compared to the NHS. I had to enlighten them that we pay for the NHS through taxes and that prescriptions are not free unless you’re a child or elderly etc.”

If you don’t have a Medicare card you won’t be eligible for the free healthcare system but if you do then you can shut down mentions of costs by asking for all of your treatment to be done in the public system.

40% of people (ish) have some form of private cover and patients without private cover choose to see their specialists privately (faster, continuity of care, can choose their doctor) so it seems sensible that GPs are discussing costs with their patients. It doesn’t mean that the public system isn’t free.

@RainbowInACloud - you need to pressurise your union. It's clear from your post that you consider it a patient safety issue.

Also there are many ways to protest in a democracy. Your MP, your CCG, the Sec of State for Health, the Shadow Sec, the party leaders. You know how to do it.

Putting it simply:

Patient seeing GP:

• I’m worried about my chronic snoring and poor sleep. Treating my allergies and losing weight hasn’t helped. I’d like to see an ENT.

GP - would you like to go public or private?

Patient - private please. I’d like to see Dr X at this clinic.

GP - Ok, referral done and sent by medical objects, you’ll need to call this number to make an appt. They tend to charge x for first consultation.

Or :

Patient - I’d is like to go public

GP - Ok, referral done and sent my medical objects. The hospital will send you an appointment on the mail.

40% of the time there will be a discussion about money. It doesn’t mean that money needs to be paid.