AIBU to not understand the english attitude towards the NHS?

[EggplantsForever]

Every time someone criticises the NHS, every time someone asks for better health service, or to have some not absolutely vital procedure (like IVF) covered, or to be referred to a specialist there is a barrage of voices here calling them "ungrateful", proclaiming that "the NHS is on it's knees", etc.

I just find it so peculiarly English and I have very hard time understanding it! Perhaps you can explain?

I mean, it is almost as if people feel that someone very nice and kind has given the English people the free health service, and they should be eternally grateful and not mention its shortcomings or it will be taken away. But the NHS is in fact paid by your own taxes! It belongs to you. And you have full right to criticise it and expect it to work just as well as other free healthcare systems in the world. Which it doesn't. It actually compares pretty badly even to the countries that spend less money per capita on health. I have a feeling it is actually badly mismanaged.

For example, look at this table en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_quality_of_healthcare
UK is at the bottom at most of them, below Portugal/Spain, Israel, and Slovenia who spend significantly less money on healthcare.

From my personal experience, having lived in a country with free healthcare, you could go to a gynaecologist without referral (and women were advised to see one for a yearly check up). Skin specialist did not require referral either. Referral to any other specialist took me on average two weeks. IVF was available to everyone for free. The list of cancer drugs included drugs that are not funded in the UK. etc And people still routinely complained about their healthcare. Which they had full right to do, because it was funded by their own taxes.

So I am just not sure why is everyone so afraid to criticise the NHS? It is actually one of UK's biggest problems. And why does everyone eternally fear that it will be "taken away"?

The elephant in the room is that the British people (with exceptions but the exceptions are too few) refuse to accept that to get an improved health system direct contributions will have to go up, be it via some sort of part insurance system as in other European countries or direct, ring-fenced taxation. But no, the population of this country is not willing to pay more and any suggestion of doing so is met with fierce protests.

So as they say, you get what you pay for, and in this case, what you deserve.

@Stevie77 is right.

Graphista

I've only waited in A&E in Utah, but I've never waited for more than 1 hour, although more realistically not more than 30 minutes. Never for anything really emergent either, things like stiches, severe reflux, sprains, etc.

However in England, I've never waited less than 3/4 hours, in A&E.

The NHS is broken, not fit for purpose and needs to be torn apart and a fresh start applied.

Absolutely. Except the current lot in power tried that with the benefits system and look what's happened there...

"So as they say, you get what you pay for, and in this case, what you deserve."

Clearly that does sum up the attitude of most medical practitioners in the UK. A very vindictive attitude, and one based on the idea that plebs are not worthy of a sainted doctor's attention. Doctors are so very, very hard done by, having to soil their hands on riff-raff.

Actually @ARudeTerriblePerson yes - one thing I found remarkable is the very peculiarly English British rude, condescending and simultaneously pouting attitude of some healthcare professionals. I wonder where is comes from.

To me this behaviour always looks very childish, I almost had to stop myself from asking a certain GP and a certain obstetrician to stop the tantrum and start behaving like grown ups.

I suspect it also has to do with class issues. Being a doctor myself probably did something to counteract this in my case, and I do feel sorry for someone perceived as lower class/uneducated - it must be tough in this system.

You sum it up extremely well, OP. You are very lucky to be able to point out that you are a doctor yourself - you are guaranteed infinitely better treatment by doing that.

Stevie77 it's seen as a vote loser (increased taxation) but many I've spoken to - from varying backgrounds inc very wealthy and in higher tax brackets - have said they'd be more than happy for increased taxation for this purpose.

It'sonlysubterfuge - I've had longish waits in uk a&e - on weekend nights, usually when there's been a major incident of some kind. But I've also experienced dd or I being seen really quickly too - even for relatively minor issues like sprained joints - on quieter days/evenings.

There is a problem with people in uk going to a&e unnecessarily - but then I suspect that's also something that happens in other countries, perhaps to a lesser degree but you get daft people everywhere!

"Except the current lot in power tried that with the benefits system and look what's happened there..." Omg yes! Can't trust this current lot to organise the proverbial piss up! And even when they're confronted with their blatant ignorance they won't admit or apologise! Currently a frighteningly not so funny meme on FB regarding raab not knowing Dover-Calais an important trade route, Karen Bradley not knowing the politics of NI or why THAT border matters in brexit negotiations... There were a couple other ministers noted for their ignorance related to their ministerial areas too (can't remember which and can't find the meme - if anyone can find/link I'd be grateful cos it's bugging me I can't find it)

Arudeterribleperson - yes I've certainly come across that attitude at times. Seems dependent on how I'm perceived class wise, I've at various points seemed to be mc/professional/wife or dd of professional due to my or my dads or husbands jobs at the time, or of working class/underclass (more recently since becoming unable to work - due to ill health!).

I've also had hcps assume based presumably on a brief glance at my records that there are certain things I don't know - only for them to have to backpedal when it becomes apparent actually I DO know what X drug/procedure/treatment involves. Which rather calls into question - what is happening to patients unlucky enough not to have that knowledge?

I've found being an ex nurse can go 2 ways though - either they get that means I have a certain understanding of medical issues and and get slightly better treatment, or I'm treated as someone who's knowledge is making me a hypochondriac! (I've actually had this said to me on more than one occasion - they were wrong! And circumstances then proved them wrong!)

I know it’s OT but this continuous reference to the improper use of English for British is driving me crazy...it’s very easily explained you know? For the rest of the world, you speak English and therefore it’s a perfectly reasonable assumption for someone who didn’t have to study in detail History of the U.K. that you might all be...English. It might not be correct but there’s no reason to be so finicky because I bet if you had to draw on a map the boundaries of catalona in Spain you’d have trouble...or define which cantone of Switzerland speaks which language, or where’s Wallonia, etc etc

Cherin as a SCOT I find your post deeply offensive. The U.K. Clearly comprises 4 separate COUNTRIES it's not the same as the comparisons you're making at all!

It's more akin to calling Canadians American! Or saying all Cypriots are Greek.

Plus many other countries speak English, Canada, USA, Australia, New Zealand, Barbados, Jamaica...

You wouldn't call them English would you?

It's really shocking that the class system is so rigidly enforced within the NHS, in terms of who "deserves" decent treatment and who doesn't. Ironically if you get a PhD, medical staff still treat you better - they don't bother to check. I'm wondering whether I should just change my name to "Doctor" by deed poll, thus guaranteeing for myself a long and healthy life.

You didn’t get my point. I’m not saying you’re not correct, I’m saying there’s a simple explanation why people from other country might make the mistake. And also to point you to the fact that the British themselves in my experience make similar mistakes when talking about other countries, sometimes out of ignorance sometimes out of superficiality because you think it’s the same thing. No offense meant. But ‘nuff said.

To get back to the topic of the thread, though, I am puzzled by how many of use choose to compare the British nhs to the systems of USA and Australia, which are completely different nations in terms of number of people and geographical density/population distribution, and so few of you actually use one of our neighbours as a reference. France, Spain, Italy, even Germany have a more similar geography and government and density etc etc.

If people genuinely valued and treasured the NHS they would not seek to silence criticism and they would instead fight with everything they had to end the atrocious "care" many people receive.

The concept of universal healthcare is important and I will defend that. But I will not defend an institution that fails and harms people.

Silencing criticism does not protect universal healthcare, it ensures that more people will be needlessly harmed and failed. If you're one of the people who shouts down criticism then you are complicit in the harm being caused and the lives being damaged or destroyed.

Couldn't agree with you more, AnoukSpirit.

Doctors are not supposed to harm people.

Agreed anouk. Letting it sink under poor practice without proper funding and support is not respecting it at all.

Let's get it off the pedestal it's balancing on, get it fixed and keep it in place for future generations.

Posters on this thread may be interested to check this thread also:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3417803-Babylon-GP-at-hand-all-thoughts-welcome?msgid=82486892#82486892

Thanks for that link, Graphista.

Having lived in America Im massively grateful for the NHS. People just assume a health disaster won't happen to them but in a country like that even if you have brilliant insurance you can be financially ruined by a major illness. If you have a chronic condition you'll basically be uninsurable.

I'd happily pay more taxes for better health are and better education for everyone.

Found the Wikipedia table the OP linked very interesting as I lived in South Korea (which scores very highly) for 6 years and found their healthcare system was head and shoulders above the NHS. Not free, but heavily subsidised by the government, so that I would pay £5 for a basic GP's visit with prescription medicine.

But the South Korean system was fab because:

• you never had to register with a doctor (you just went to whichever doctor you fancied)
• never had to make an appointment for a GP's visit (and surgeries were in abundance so there was never more than a 20 minute wait)
• you could elect to have whatever check-ups you wanted without referral; you had to pay towards the cost of the check-up but it was never exorbitant (e.g. £30 for a gyno visit) and it was great to have the freedom to choose what and when you wanted checked out. I went to the gyno once a year, went for basic breast screenings twice while I was there (in my 30s but felt a lump); lots of Koreans get colonoscopies done every couple of years after they turn 30 because they believe colon/bowel cancer is a preventable form of cancer & easily caught if monitored; most of my friends had moles removed for cosmetic and medical reasons because it only cost about £10 and you could just turn up on the day and be in and out really quickly.
• the staff were amazing! Customer care in Korea, in general, is great and I always found doctors and nurses incredibly caring, kind and efficient.

If I had to wager a guess, I would say that one of the reasons that South Korea has such a high survival rate is the ease of access to healthcare - both for preventative measures (like screenings) or check-ups (e.g. feel a lump? Pop into the closest hospital/GP during your lunch break and get it checked within the hour).

Also, I paid less in healthcare contributions there than I do here, even though my wages now are roughly the same as they were there.

There are definitely ways to improve the NHS; I think that citing a limited budget is a cop out that allows them to avoid meaningful analysis and change to take place.

Sad to see that people are swallowing propaganda so readily. International comparisions are hard to do because they requit=re you to look at things like the age distribution of the population - countries with more elderly people have to spend more on health care. Any international comparison by those who know what they are doing actually concludes that the NHS represents excellent value for what we pay. It's not as good as it was thanks to the disaster called the Private Finance Initiative and stupid reorganisations.

You get a better service than you pay for. If you want a better service then you need to pay more - it''s that simple. Personally I'd be quite happy to pay more in taxes.

Also - perfectly happy to criticise the NHS when it needs it, but most complaints are either actually about the gp system or non-specific belief that something isnt working properly, largely fuelled by being told that frequently.

Foreign commentators inevitably seem to ignore that people here have the opportunity to pay for private health care if they wish (unlike the Canadian system - some of use do actually know something about other healthcare).

As for other health care systems - if you want insurance based you will pay extra for the extra administration and then for the profits the insurers require. You may get unnecessary treatment as in the American system or you may get refusal to insure complex conditions.

My only experience of needing health care in another (non-European) country involved a life threatening emergency where it was necessary to complete the same forms in triplicate and produce my credit card before anyone would look at the patient. Unfortunately as it was an emergency I didnt have the insurance details to hand so needed the credit card. Treatment was substandard so that also took longer than it should have done but fortunately the patient survived.

When you are on holiday ALWAYS have your insurers number in your phone and your reference number on you.

"Also - perfectly happy to criticise the NHS when it needs it, but most complaints are either actually about the gp system or non-specific belief that something isnt working properly"

You might be interested to see a thread I started (apologies if I've already linked)

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/3402449-Aibu-to-ask-you-to-tell-me-your-experiences-of-being-dismissed-by-medics-as-a-sick-woman-I-promise-to-listen

The premise/slant is regarding misogyny affecting treatment of patients.

But even I didn't expect it to turn out that seemingly there are particular issues with getting certain conditions acknowledged let alone Dx and treated - the one that springs to mind is gall stones which I haven't suffered myself thank goodness but which many on the thread have reported having great difficulty getting dx and treated and which I recently learned this had happened to my mum too.

And this thread isn't just about difficulty with gp's - it's a&e's, maternity wards, consultant offices...

And I would argue not non-specific beliefs that something isn't working properly but a very specific belief that too many hcps still believe "hysterical woman" is a diagnosis! (Not even kidding - a few of us have even discovered that's been written on our medical records!)

"most complaints are either actually about the gp system or non-specific belief that something isnt working properly"

No, the complaints about waiting times are specific.