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AIBU?

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Original poster

To not understand this? From a school? Giving bad reviews is illegal isn't it..

126 replies

Momasita · 02/11/2018 23:04

So my dd needs a head teachers reference to help with grammar school application and the head doesn't give them?
She or her staff mark the tick box stuff, Wright numbers... On how eligible dd is but the part of the form where she needs words.. Is blank?

How is this legal?
People warned me about this... And I thought to myself.. Dd has such glowing reports our head couldn't possibly leave her box blank!!

Now other parents come out of woodwork to nervously say... She doesn't belive in grammars and she won't help. She has been over heard sneering at parents who tutor etc.

I'm just astounded. How is this even legal??
My dd form teacher... Who also happens to be the heads daughter ShockHmm has told us she hopes the form helps??

I'm thinking.... No! Of course leaving heads comments blank hasn't helped.the review panel will have minuets to sift through hundreds of applications and they will be full of in depth heads glowing reports!

I can't get my head round it. I also rang the office and got a nervous... We don't know much about these forms....

OP posts:
Janleverton · 03/11/2018 13:50

And you’re talking about the best education for the most able children which isn’t necessarily the best education for the majority of children.

PurpleDaisies · 03/11/2018 13:50

It's what every primary in the country used to do, which is why those of us who went through the system can spell, use correct grammar and do basic maths without a calculator.

Er, you don’t have to teach to a grammar entrance exam for the pupils to be able to do that. Confused

Janleverton · 03/11/2018 13:53

^exactly. My children have all been taught these things despite not being in a grammar area. Wouldn’t necessarily help them to get into the grammar schools in neighbouring areas, where the tests are designed supposedly to be tutor proof 🤔 and which are they say, supposed to gauge natural ability so as not disadvantage children who have been at crap primary schools.

Bluelady · 03/11/2018 13:54

The current 11+ doesn't look vastly different to the one I passed 50 odd years ago. There was no tutoring then, the brightest kids passed, the others day didn't. You can't actually teach those non verbal reasoning skills, you either have a brain that can order data or you haven't.

Bluelady · 03/11/2018 13:56

That "day" shouldn't be there, btw!

Janleverton · 03/11/2018 13:58

So if you can’t teach those non-verbal reasoning skills, why are you suggesting that primary schools should be teaching them?

Janleverton · 03/11/2018 14:01

FWIW I agree that some people are naturally good at non verbal reasoning and others aren’t. I’m not sure that that equates though to them being the brightest. I do think that there’s some truth in the idea that practicing and being familiar with how to deal with the non verbal tests can give an advantage to pupils that have been tutored. When the neighbouring area changed the tests to try and tutor proof I hear there was a mad scramble among tutors to modify their approach to give their paying pupils the best advantage.

Wazznme · 03/11/2018 14:03

It's interesting about employers not being obliged to give a reference because by refusing to give a reference, you're suggesting there was an issue with the employee. So that in itself is defamatory.

Bluelady · 03/11/2018 14:04

I'm not. I am suggesting that those skills necessary for an 11+ pass which CAN be taught should be by primary schools in grammar areas. It's hardly going to disadvantage those kids who don't pass.

Tinty · 03/11/2018 14:19

Why don't primary schools in grammar school areas teach to pass the exam, they always did when the whole country had the grammar system.

Only about 25% of DC in a Grammar School area go to a Grammar School so that would be a waste of 75% of the DC's time.

As it is they are wasting the DC's time instead teaching them to pass SATS! To get high marks for the school. Instead of teaching them interesting things in Yr 6.

Bombardier25966 · 03/11/2018 14:23

It's interesting about employers not being obliged to give a reference because by refusing to give a reference, you're suggesting there was an issue with the employee. So that in itself is defamatory.

No, it's not. You're assuming there was an issue, the previous employer has not said or implied that. Added to which, defamation cannot occur by silence. Silence is a neutral act.

BettyDuMonde · 03/11/2018 14:24

The main thing tutors do is practise papers so that a) the child is familiar with the types of questions posed and b) the child has time management skills that allow them to give appropriate time to each question and thus finish the paper. They also offer exam-experience days to help combat on-the-actual-day nerves.

Even the brightest of non-tutored children will struggle to complete the exams, compared to average tutored children.

That said, statistically, borderline children do better at non-grammar schools, where they will be in top sets. At grammar schools, they will be at the bottom of the pile.

I live in an area that is still 100% selective and it’s shit - they bus in top achieving kids from miles and miles around and local kids get significantly less attention/facilities than comprehensive areas ISEN kids are shit out of luck. Especially high functioning autists).

The head is under no obligation to do any more than tick and sign the form. If you want a school that treats you like a customer, you have to pay fees for a prep school.

BettyDuMonde · 03/11/2018 14:26

SEND kids.

Hadenoughofallthis · 03/11/2018 15:06

State school primary heads are under no obligation to advise or recommend pupils for any secondary school.
That some do, is more of an anomaly than the norm. But mathanxiety's advice (when she either lives in the US or grew up there) is flawed. It is not a Head's "duty" to fill in such a form, and the OP has no grounds to complain to the Governing Body about her.

Also, this Head did not give a "bad" review, illegal or otherwise. She just left an optional part of the form blank. Who knows, that may have actually done you a favour, because you can now pretend it was due to her anti-grammar bias, rather than the possibility that she just doesn't believe your dd is cut out for grammar school.

Angelil · 03/11/2018 15:06

I'm surprised frankly that you even got to see a copy of the form. References are usually confidential (and often signed across the sealed envelope flap before being sealed again with sticky tape so that it's obvious if a reference has been tampered with before a headteacher receives it). For this reason they are often sent to schools directly as well rather than being sent via the parents. As you have found out for yourself, sending references via parents causes more problems than it solves. The headteacher does not have to justify themselves to you.
As you have mentioned, it is a moot point anyway as your daughter did not pass the exam.

Angelil · 03/11/2018 15:11

Furthermore, by asserting that "One of her peers jumped through it because they were tutored for years before" is erroneous. You are conflating causation with correlation. The child may have sailed through it even if they hadn't been tutored, just because of natural raw ability. You will never know!

I am not anti-grammar schools but am firmly anti the past papers being made publicly available, as it encourages this "teaching to the test" mentality.

blinkbonny · 03/11/2018 15:14

I understand your concerns but I wouldn't worry. I've been in similar situation and HT also would not write a comment. The ticking of the 123 assessment boxes carries much more weight, and accompanied by reports that show the real view of your child's academic achievements over time - as opposed to a one-sentence summation written specifically to support the one goal of passing the appeal - are enough to get across the point you are trying to make, of your daughter's suitability for the GS environment.

Regarding legality, it's a different process to an employment reference so same rules just don't apply. It's an analogy but not a like-for-like.

Good luck! It's a very stressful time so 

Hadenoughofallthis · 03/11/2018 15:24

The thing is, what would the Head write? She either waxes lyrical about every child, which devalues her opinion anyway, or she bigs up some children more than others, which would be regarded as disciminatory against those who didn't have such nice things written about them.

She can't win. I don't blame her for opting out.

Billben · 03/11/2018 15:51

How is this legal?

😂🤣😂🤣

thereallochnessmonster · 03/11/2018 16:03

OP, if your dc was not tutored and she only failed by 1/4 of a mark then that's very close and she deserves a place.

There are girls in dd's grammar who failed by a lot more but who got in on appeal. Good luck to your dd.

CJsGoldfish · 03/11/2018 21:47

So all it boils down to really is that your kid didn't pass the exam but you think she should get in anyway and are looking around at anyone you can throw some anger at because she didn't pass?

OK then. Carry on and let us know where it gets you.

magoria · 03/11/2018 22:16

If it is anything like the school my son sat the exam for she won't have a chance.

He wasn't tutored. Approximately 600 children sat the exams for 100 places. My son came 125th. Passed and did really well but not good enough.

Tinty · 05/11/2018 15:29

If you were in my area you couldn't even appeal. 124 pass, 15 or so pass and on waiting list, in case any of the 124 don't take their places.

Anyone who doesn't pass cannot appeal. You just get a letter saying your child did not achieve an eligible score and you cannot appeal.

prh47bridge · 05/11/2018 17:23

If you were in my area you couldn't even appeal

That isn't true. The letter they send is misleading if it says that there is no appeal at all. If you apply despite failing the test and are refused a place you can appeal at that point. The appeal panel is then obliged to consider whether or not your child is of grammar school standard. It would be very difficult to win such an appeal but it is possible.

BonfiresOfInsanity · 05/11/2018 18:04

I believe most primary HTs in grammar school areas don't like the system and they are certainly not allowed to promote it or teach specifically for it. Did you make an appointment to discuss your selection review with your HT? Did she say she would support your review? Our HT will only do that for children who she genuinely believes would thrive at a GS. You don't say what mark the HT gave but a child could get one mark off the qualifying score but the head may have given them a 3-3 score because they don't believe that child would do well there - the score may have been a fluke (not saying it is in your case just that it may be possible in other cases) in which case she may not want to endorse that appeal. In that instance she may be doing everything she thinks is right for that child.

By the way, writing that you never tutored your daughter won't win you any points at appeal, they don't care about that and there is no way of proving it. I do find it odd though when anyone who lives in a grammar school area with ambitions for their child to get into grammar school would not spend some time familiarising themselves with the test content. You do not have to have a tutor to do this, nor do you have to be very wealthy but you do have to give up a bit of time - 30 mins a week is more than enough in Year 5 (ignore the idiots who tutor for years, it is not necessary if you have an able child who is achieving highly in school). There is an abundance of information and free content available online and the 11+ forum is brilliant for guidance.

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