To think flying off on holidays is immoral?

[RedTriangle]

Anyone planning to fly off on holidays?

“Every round-trip ticket on flights from New York to London, keep in mind, costs the Arctic three more square meters of ice”
nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-hot-for-humans.html

I live near an airport and there is a steady stream of planes landing and taking off. It feels ominous now in light of the recent WWF report talking about life on earth being wiped out.

There are posts on mumsnet on the section about long haul travel where people are talking about flying off with their families to Thailand or Mexico etc not thinking or not caring about the impact! Future generations won’t be jetting off and living lives like this as we will have destroyed the planet and they will be scrambling to survive.

My parents have booked a weekend in Spain! They regularly do this and they will be long gone while future people pay a terrible price.

It's so depressing reading comments from those who believe individual actions don't make a difference.

Most people I know are trying to do their bit, be it cutting out meat, shopping at farm shops rather than supermarkets etc etc.

There is incredible innovation happening at the moment –our house is entirely powered by hydropower stations in Scotland. That wasn't a deliberate environmental choice, it was just the cheapest option.

But I agree that big business needs to lead the change, and consumers have a huge voice in driving this. Don't like your Aldi non-recyclable packaging? Stop shopping there / lobby them online / start a campaign. Walkers are changing their packet design because of consumer pressure.

Small steps, but important ones. And remember, most of the UK is only concerned about plastic consumption because David Attenborough and his crew flew around the world to educate us about it!

Don't like your Aldi non-recyclable packaging? Stop shopping there / lobby them online / start a campaign.

Yeah, people on low wages are really going to avoid Aldi because of their packaging. They have tons of time and skills to start a fucking campaign, too. This thread is champagne socialism at its finest. Having a house where you can chose the form of power you use is a huge luxury for many.

Me and DH chose not to have children partly because of overpopulation and also because we both feel the world is a not very nice place on the whole so why would you bring children into it?

We are now in our 60's and things are, obviously, getting worse but are going to get a hell of a lot worse. It makes me depressed and very worried for our nieces and nephews futures and any children they may have. I am so glad though that I don't have our own children to worry about.

I think in a lot of ways it would be better for the human race to die out as we could face a very tough and frightening future. I am not sure we can do much now to change the course of events but agree that we should be trying to tidy up as much of our mess as we can before we die out.

We do try and do our bit. We have no children, we have been vegetarian for over 30 years and are now almost vegan. We buy local food as much as we can - eggs from a neighbour, veg from a local farmer, practically no processed foods, as little plastic as possible, rarely buy clothes and then mainly from charity shops.

I don't drive so will walk or use the bus. DH does drive and often has to drive distances for work. He can't use public transport as he has to carry a lot of tools for his work.

We have flown twice in the last 15 years.

I honestly do not feel that what we do makes any difference whatsoever but at least we are doing something. Far too many people just don't seem to care.

A huge problem is overpopulation but so many people don't care about that or want to believe it. Just read some of the threads on here and see just how many posters have 3, 4, 5 or even more children.

Someone will ask "should I have baby no 3 even though we have no money, live in a tiny flat etc etc" and the majority of posters will reply "yes you should", "if you want another you should have one" etc. Dare to suggest it is not a good idea and you get shot down in flames or even downright abuse.

Supposedly people are having less children but I don't see that around me. Most of my neighbours are youngish families and the average number of children they have is 3. Some have more than that

Spot on, mydog. We have 2, but if I had to do it over again, I'd have none. Loads of virtue signalling from people with kids on here.

I am at somebody in Vietnam many years ago Huu was thinking along those lines and suggesting that everybody should take a boat from Europe to Asia.

dontalltalkatonce

I think that’s a little unfair. Virtue signalling only by people with children you say? When you have two yourself? Because I have children am I not allowed to have an opinion? Or do I have to join the people saying “don’t give a toss”, “I’ll be dead by then”, because I have children? Two of them, like you, fwiw.

I accept that overpopulation is a huge problem. But we aren’t even at replacement levels in this country. The other huge problem is, that just one of us consumes many times more than someone living in some parts of Africa. Does that not indicate that population isn’t the only problem here?

Also, there is an argument that the problem isn’t that people are having too many babies, it’s that we’re living too long.

I do think we’ll have one or two child policies in the future and possibly easier access to euthanasia.

Look, the world is getting worse as mydog rightly says. I personally plan on doing what I can to make it as good as possible for whoever, or whatever is left when we do die out.

I haven’t been judgemental towards anyone on here as I’m very far from perfect. But I do find it very difficult to understand people declaring that they don’t give a toss about the planet or anyone in it. Really disturbing.

Virtue signalling only by people with children you say? When you have two yourself?

Except I'm not the one on here scolding people for using airplanes . You're allowed to have as many opinions as you want, but if you've contributed to the problem that is over-population, well, it's a bit like those rich celebs telling everyone to give away their money whilst they hang onto all theirs.

What about the economies and communities that rely on tourism?

Why limit this to people flying on holiday, what about people who do road trips over Europe or the US etc.

Basically people should just stay in one place, never move from it, never commute and never eat anything that didn’t come out of the ground they stand on??

I’m not scolding anyone for using aeroplanes . Who do you mean? The op? Well, the deed is done with her dcs isn’t it? But now she’s had a bit of an epiphany and she’s thinking about flying less. Maybe instead of getting all how dare you judge us when you have children you could say “good for you”.

I’m flying to visit family this Christmas ffs. No way would I be scolding anyone for flying.

Do people actually read on here anymore before they go off on one?

I said, don’t make yourself miserable, I’m not saying no flying ever, but maybe reducing the number of flights and looking for cleaner ways to travel would be good.

I’m not saying no flights ever, as I know a balance needs to be struck between doing what we reasonably can to protect the planet and actually enjoying said planet while we can. But a bit of conservation by cutting back and inventing cleaner travel sounds good to me.

From one of my earlier posts. Tell me where I’m scolding and virtue signalling again?

Do you eat meat?
Do you eat dairy?
Do you eat exotic fruits from abroad/out of season in the UK?
Do you buy clothes from high Street retailers?
Do you buy products made in other countries?
Do you use plastic?
Do you buy wrapping paper for gifts?
Do you use chemicals to clean?

I agree with all this. We all do things we shouldn't. What I really don't have time for though are the middle class vegans I know who lecture everyone else about their diet and use of plastic and cheap non-"eco" cleaning products but then fly long haul with their kids. Those flights are way worse than me eating a bit of cheese and buying soap that doesn't cost £4 a bar.

So everyone with kids should feel guilty too?

Honestly sometimes people who fear for the environment sound like everyone should just live in a cave growing their oen veg, not reproduce and sit it out til the human race dies out.
You can’t carry the burden of an entire generation on your shoulders OP. Petition companies to do better

The predicted increase in population ( 7 billion to 11 billion) by 2100 will largely be due to higher life expectancy rather than higher birth rates. Pretty much everywhere apart from Africa and parts of Asia is now at or near replacement in terms of fertility rates. Issue is that even if we got to replacement fertility rates now this second, the population would still increase to 9.5-10 billion just due to increased life expectancy. Also, the paradox is that whilst reduced poverty (halved since 1990) has brought down birth rates globally it also increases consumption. Things like motorised private transport, white goods and multiple sets of clothes become possible for billions more people. Not to mention bottled water.

While individual efforts are valid they will simply not be adequate. We need people to come up with amazing new inventions. Things like lab grown meat have more potential than trying to persuade the whole of India and China to go vegan. Someone figuring out how to make a car go on half the fuel is more important than me deciding not to take a vacation.

The bottom line is that the lifestyle for 11billion people to love sustainably given current technology is probably not what any of us would consider an acceptable one. Most would probably therefore rather face the apocalypse and eat steak while they wait.

It's true that having kids is the most ruinous decision someone can make. I'd like to make it socially awkward to have more than 2.

I've sensed a shift in the atmosphere in the past months, I think people are sort of getting it about the state of the planet, perhaps? A small reason for optimism, anyway.

But yes, flying has got to move away from fossil fuels.

So everyone with kids should feel guilty too?

Everyone with children should be extra worried.

The predicted increase in population ( 7 billion to 11 billion) by 2100 will largely be due to higher life expectancy rather than higher birth rates. Pretty much everywhere apart from Africa and parts of Asia is now at or near replacement in terms of fertility rates.

Sure but there's no room for contraction if we're at replacement rather than below.

Part of the problem is we're not getting any relief from the people who opt out of parenthood entirely, because there's those who have 3+

how dare you judge us when you have children you could say “good for you”.

Eh? I haven't been outraged on this thread at all. Wind your neck in. Are you this chippy in real life? I don't really give a fuck what people do but I do think it's rich to start a thread about other people using airplanes when the person who does so has also done their bit for causing environmental damage. By all means, do what you like, but starting a scolding thread when you've done your bit for causing damage smacks of cheek to me.

Part of the problem is we're not getting any relief from the people who opt out of parenthood entirely, because there's those who have 3+

That’s true. I just wanted to point out the life expectancy thing because a lot of people dont realise that it’s not as simple as ‘have a 2 child policy’

Would this be like the "starving polar bear" hoax, which turned out to have been filmed in a area which didn't ice up at all? It's actually very interesting to see National Geographic frantically back-pedalling to cover their embarrassment over that

Or another Phil Jones / University of East Anglia con perhaps?

What pisses me off is we knew this would happen, 30/40 years ago we knew it would happen. Governments could all have made tiny mitigating steps to stop it. But no, we carried on fucking things right up. So now it’s huge steps, that we ALL have to get onboard with. But we aren’t all willing or able.

Ooooh so you were talking about the op dont. Sorry, if I seemed chippy, but I thought you said I had been virtue signalling and scolding people for flying, when I absolutely wasn’t. My mistake.

I do think the op is having a bit of an epiphany and she can’t exactly go back in time and undo her children. So, I don’t think it’s all that useful to pop up and say “if you have children you aren’t allowed to have an opinion about me flying” (paraphrasing sorry).

johnnycomelately

Great post.

InertPotato

I sensed a similar shift a couple of years ago, at exactly this time of year as well. But then it all seemed to go a bit quiet again... I hope you’re right though and it’s a reason for optimism.

Oh I know it’s not as simple as “have a 2 child policy” or indeed, as simple as “I have no children - Tada! Planet saved”.

It’s certainly worrying to think about the very shaky future, because I have children. But then I have nothing to compare that to. Was I this worried pre-dc? Probably. I think having children is always a gamble as their future could be dreadful regardless. Reasons for having or not having them are so subjective and personal.

I’d probably choose to die earlier if it helped future generations. Sign me up for the euthanasia bot !

I don't think it's immoral, no. Is it one of the biggest sources of greenhouse gas emissions? Yes. Aviation fuel needs to taxed properly for a start (instead of being heavily subsidised). And it needs to be calculated in the UKs emissions data (which it currently isn't, which is insane. Nor is shipping!).

I would never berate anyone for taking a flight though, and I've worked on climate change mitigation and adaptation for 15 years. No-one's more aware than me of the nightmare we're heading to if we we can't keep within 1.5 degree of warming :-/ If people can forgo flying, driving and meat/dairy then great, but really we need to legislate the high carbon activities out of existence - and really, really fast. Like, within twelve years. That's MASSIVE infrastructure changes - low carbon transport, everywhere, and really cheap. Artificial meat and milk needs to be in the shops asap and flying probably need to be reserved and rationed for those who really need it. No-one's going to be happy about any of that, though, so...sigh

Also, I haven't read all the population posts, but...it's red herring. Birth rates are declining in nearly every country n the world. Global population will peak in a few years and then begin to decline. Unless we're prepared to do really unethical things like kill people off (who's going to volunteer for that!) the key issue is resource use, not number of people.