To think flying off on holidays is immoral?

[RedTriangle]

Anyone planning to fly off on holidays?

“Every round-trip ticket on flights from New York to London, keep in mind, costs the Arctic three more square meters of ice”
nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-hot-for-humans.html

I live near an airport and there is a steady stream of planes landing and taking off. It feels ominous now in light of the recent WWF report talking about life on earth being wiped out.

There are posts on mumsnet on the section about long haul travel where people are talking about flying off with their families to Thailand or Mexico etc not thinking or not caring about the impact! Future generations won’t be jetting off and living lives like this as we will have destroyed the planet and they will be scrambling to survive.

My parents have booked a weekend in Spain! They regularly do this and they will be long gone while future people pay a terrible price.

BMW

If we all died out tomorrow, we’d leave unattended nuclear power stations and weapons of mass destruction. We could do a lot of damage if we don’t take the time to clean up before we shuffle off. That’s why it’s important. Even though we know we’re going to die out, we still, (or at least I feel we still), should do what we can to mitigate.

I’m not saying no flights ever, as I know a balance needs to be struck between doing what we reasonably can to protect the planet and actually enjoying said planet while we can. But a bit of conservation by cutting back and inventing cleaner travel sounds good to me.

You know how, in the 18th C, perfectly normal people used to visit lunatic asylums in order to stare at the patients? And to us that seems impossibly cruel and barbarous and we can't get our heads round how decent people could ever have thought it was ok? I suspect that is how future generations will see our behaviour when it comes to wasting the world's resources. So in that sense, yes, I do think flying to a holiday destination is immoral.

I'm not sure that the language of morality will help people change their behaviour though- we tend to think what we do is ok as long as it fits with the moral and social norms of the time, as the responses on this thread have shown.

What's going to happen when their counties flood and they can't grow anything because of that? Or when there's a drought and they can't grow anything because of that? How are they going to feed themselves then? How are we going to feed ourselves then?

Car workers need to eat and drink, this year's drought was bad for food production and prices, what will happen if we don't do anything about global warming and it becomes the norm?

Totally agree, but you have confirmed my point exactly that solving one problem creates another. There are no instant solutions to anything. You can't tell tell the workers growing exotic fruit "Oh well, you and your children have to starve to death in the present in order to stop the climate change from killing your great-grandchildren in the future". It's a terrible vicious cycle which simply cannot be solved by people suddenly not flying or eating exotic fruit. It's a head-scratcher that's for sure...

Another acquaintance is a "green" architect and her FB feed consists of travelling all over the world to deliver lectures on the subject. I truly think that the irony escapes her.

@Leafyhouse Problem is, you can't put the genie back in the bottle now.

and they know they are are wrong, hence the defensive attitude

Nah, they're just laughing at you.

Can i just point out re global warming/cooling that the planet has managed both all by itself over billions of years. From tropical to ice age and in between all by itself and will no doubt continue to do so for the rest of its existence - approx 3.5 billion years - with or without help from homo sapiens.

Having said that, I think it's important to reduce waste and plastics, buy glass bottles rather than plastic where possible, I don't have a car, have no children or pets, no holidays so no flights, I tend to eat food in season, so when I cook a big juicy steak later on today, I will have zero guilt at my impact on the planet by doing so.

You obviously don't want to hear that so go back to your virtue signalling.

I suppose for so long I was ‘asleep’ and didn’t really care that much to be honest.

I (stupidly) didn’t realise how massive the impact of global warming was. It just didn’t register with me. I knew it was a big problem but I didn’t realise that our survival as a species was under threat in the very short term. The next generation are going to be hugely afffected and everyone thinks I’m being too gloomy or crazy if I try to bring this up in real life.

I have to say I have been very shocked by the WWF report that 60% of all life on the planet has been wiped out since 1970.

This article shows how frightening our future is.

nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-hot-for-humans.html

I look around my house and it is filled with plastic toys. To heat my house I burn fossil fuels. DH is visiting his parents later and will drive his diesel car a few hundred miles. The food I buy in the shops has ingredients that have been shipped from all over the world. We throw out a full wheelie bin of rubbish for landfill every two weeks.

So yes, I am hardly in a position to criticise others for their choices but the whole thing is just really freaking me out.

YANBU and I am shocked that so many people believe the answer is to give up and just do what makes you happy - this attitude is what got is in to this situation in the first place. I think it's akin to giving up on your children- I am not prepared to do that personally, to me that's immoral and would not be able to justify my acquiescence in the future when they ask, 'what did you do to prevent this Mum?'

I personally think big business have to take the lead as environmental groups and campaigns are often viewed as exteme and abstract. To be environmentally friendly should not have to be such a challenge as people just won't rise to the challenge.

The problem with environmentalism is it's always described in negative terms - as giving something up. You're right, flying is immoral. We're tearing up our planet. But it's only going to get people's backs up by saying so. We need to be more positive about it.

Holidays by train or boat are calmer and nicer. There should be incentives for employers to allow another couple of days' travel time for employees travelling this way, or a three-week leave break every few years so you could go somewhere far flung.

Local, veg-rich food is nicer than cheap meaty fatty factory stuff.

One of the best things you can do for the environment is supporting a charity that does development projects in poor countries. When there's enough money around for women to have rights, education and healthcare and the prospect that their children are likely to survive into adulthood, they don't have such big families. They also have happier lives.

Buying things that last instead of cheap plastic disposable stuff is nicer, too. A well-made object is just better. The problem is that there needs to be less inequality so everyone can afford to buy slightly better things. Some people have incomes that make cheap rubbish the only option for them.

Great post, HB.

I know it would be nice and neat and easy to say “no kids, job done”, but it isn’t as simple as that.

It goes a very long way towards that, especially if you're a low income person on this island. You may not be able to jet off, but you're going to be very reliant on fossil fuels for pretty much everything and likely unable to afford a lot of 'environmentally friendly' alternatives or even things like gardens to grow your own or buying organic or local or the like.

Holidays by train or boat are calmer and nicer.

They take longer and are usually more expensive. The trains in this country are so ridiculously expensive.

You have no idea what people do or why people fly. Maybe they do more than you do to save the planet and have one holiday a year to see family.

Each person does what they think is best under their own circumstances, chasing their own individual demons and angels. You have no idea.

We will all die one day. If you look at evolution you will see that there have been other species as the most powerful on the planet before us. Why do you think homo sapiens should last forever? Why should planet Earth last forever? Frankly, I think a sudden blast of death heat would be preferable to the planet slowly drifting further and further away from the Sun and any other planets etc, leaving us freezing to death instead.

Just do what you do to the best of your ability.

HB while I agree language often makes a difference, I think you're in danger of denying the reality of the behaviour change required.

As someone pointed out upthread, a local sourced vegan diet in the U.K. in winter is not much fun.

Never leaving Europe again without considerable time and hassle isn't going to go down well.

Walking everywhere, getting rid of pets, virtually cutting out consumption, seriously cutting down on electric, none of those are easy to spin in a positive direction.

To make a significant difference, we'd need to simplify our ways of living to a degree that most will find totally unpalatable. That's the problem.

Agree - great post HB.

Op, that’s an amazing article too. Not pleasant to read! But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t read it.

There’s a balance to be struck, as I said, between enjoying what we can of the planet and protecting what we can. Protecting what we can, doesn’t have to be a big, worthy bore fest though. Some of the most fun and interesting people I know care a lot about conservation.

And so help me, if I ever read “I’ll eat as much steak and take as many long haul flights as I like, because I don’t have children / I’ll be dead by then anyway so why should I care about pollution? / but... beach holidays”.

I’m not saying make yourself miserable, but little changes, made en masse, can make a difference.

Op, have you thought of switching to renewable energy in your house instead of gas or whatever you currently use btw? We’ve done this and it makes me feel better anyway.

I also think that we will see the day when we don’t have the choice anymore. I can see us having one child policies and maybe rationing, in my lifetime.

My children are likely to live in a very different world by the time I’m dead. I won’t be encouraging them to have their own dcs tbh. For the sake of the planet and also because what sort of life might they be able to enjoy? I think some experts predict the world will be pretty unpleasant by the end of this century.

I did hear a fun fact though, which I found weirdly reassuring. Apparently, if we had to, the entire population at the moment could live in the state of Texas. Yeah, I’d obviously rather not, as it would be horribly cramped, but you know.

We live in interesting times and I just hope my children will contribute something to the planet or to mankind. Not saving the species, as I personally think that ship has sailed and we’ll die out soon enough. But we don’t have to be dicks about it do we?

You can tell your husband not to drive his diesel car. Makes no difference as lots of other people do. Mine is one of the worst as it was made by vw, and we all know how much they lied about emissions. But I still drive it. And will continue to.

santa

Well, you’ll only continue to until they’re banned. I don’t think we have that long till we have to switch to electric.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40726868

Yes and no.
Many people live completely unconsciously regarding the consequences of their choices - they do what seems easiest, what they see other people doing, whatever brings immediate or short term gratification. Don't know if it's immoral or just human nature playing out.
I've lived like that too. Didn't make me very happy. In fact I got really ill.This made me stop and think about how we live, behave, and treat each other and our planet.
I'd go back and forward between anxiety, hopelessness, over dramatising,defensiveness, fatalism, back to head in sand.
Going round in circles!
Eventually I realised other people's choices were their business and that the big end result for human beings of all those choices was unknowable and not my business either. My doom and gloom was only increasing the negativity.
I did change loads of things for myself though. Slowed down, not much of a consumer any more, tried out new ways of doing things - some that seemed really inconvenient to begin with! (don't fly now!).
Life is better, friendlier, calmer, cheaper - (not perfect!)
And more people started chatting with me about what they were changing - really unexpected people. A lot of people are really are trying new ideas - I feel hopeful. Who knows?

Not saving the species, as I personally think that ship has sailed and we’ll die out soon enough Thousands of species die out every year. Humans are a species. It is shameful the damage we have done that has impacted other species but no-one is bothered enough to actually make that much of a difference to their own quality of life to care that much. I don't have children so I don't give a toss to be honest what happens.

Holidays by train or boat are calmer and nicer.

I can't think of anything worse to be honest. Trains in this country are dirty, never run on time and I never feel safe. As for the thought of being trapped on a boat for days on end, that sounds like hell on earth.

On a different note, I did a WWF carbon footprint survey earlier. According to that, my carbon footprint is horrific but to be honest I think it was skewed. One of the questions was about my home and what insulation I have. I don't have cavity wall or loft insulation as I don't have cavity walls or a loft. There wasn't an option to say this but I presume it made my score worse. Can anyone recommend a more accurate survey?

It’s a good point and I do fly for holidays.

I’ve been thinking about the gross treatment of the ocean more due to those images of plastic in the waves but flying too. So much stuff contributes. And the political system is not geared to help change behaviour.

Thousands of species die out every year. Humans are a species. It is shameful the damage we have done that has impacted other species

Exactly! This is why we need to stick around long enough to clean up. If we all die now, we’ll leave a huge mess for the rest of the planet. Shameful indeed.

We’re dying out, but that was going to be the case regardless of climate change. But we don’t have to be arseholes about it. Couldn’t give a toss? Oh bravo for you . Some of us want to leave a semi-reparable planet for whatever comes after us.

Oh my god it’s you gromance! I should have known. I wrote the above and then saw your username . How’s child free taking as many flights as you like and eating all the meat going? Good I hope?

falseeconomy

Love your post. No need to be bitter and vile just because we’re doomed is there?

I can't think of anything worse to be honest. Trains in this country are dirty, never run on time and I never feel safe. As for the thought of being trapped on a boat for days on end, that sounds like hell on earth.

I agree when it comes to trains. Especially with bags and young kids. Cost a fucking bomb, too. Get real, it's far cheaper to drive or fly and your luggage is much more manageable. I do love boats, but they are not environmentally friendlier or cheaper at all.