To wonder why anyone would buy a puppy through gumtree or the like?

[SummerGems]

I’m not talking so much about why people would buy a puppy from a backyard breeder as that’s a discussion in its own right, but why anyone would log on to their local gumtree, look up the pets for sale adverts, and call the owner and arrange to go and collect a living breathing animal without having first met the “breeder” the dogs or had anything to do with them before jumping in the car and coming home with said puppy, usually at vast expense.

Looking at my local gumtree there are puppies for sale for as much as £2000, and even one for £1700 which is described at being available at “the bargain price of.....” . A bargain? For a living animal? .

Why?

On some level I can sort of see how someone might know someone locally with puppies and end up taking one. I wouldn’t but I can see how it happens. But answering an advert on a buying/selling website and collecting an animal from a complete stranger after handing over often upwards of a grand for what might even be a mongrel masquerading as a genuine breed (i.e. cockerpoo/cavachon/labradoodle and I even saw one described as a pomchi the other day, just why would anyone do that?

[ProfessorMoody]

The main purpose of an endorsement is to stop someone breeding from a puppy unless the breeder lifts the endorsements, which will have criteria such as the dog must have below a certain hip score and be proven in the show ring etc. If the breeder won't lift the endorsements, the puppies cannot be KC Registered. Obviously this is a huge deal for decent people, but unscrupulous breeders won't give a shit, which is why lots of puppies are advertised as "pedigree but not KC reg".

As for returning to breeder etc, it would cost a lot of money to take to court and ultimately the courts would decide. I only know of one case and the breeder won but I would imagine its quite rare.

[Llanali]

@reallynotanotherone

Interesting points. @ProfessorMoody has answered the breeding endorsement question.
Also, this happy accident business. I’d expect an owner to have keep the bitch safe away from mating males during seasons. If there was a mishap, I’d expect a phone call to talk through options ie the canine version of morning after pill, or if the mating was by chance a positive match maybe we might consider continuing the pregnancy and I might lift the endorsement. Unfortunately for a dog, if it accidentally impregnated the bitch, that’s less controllable for me, but as ProfessorMoody said, you can’t register those pups.

The export one is about registering the dog abroad with anothe national kennel club body. The Uk kennel club would not issue an export pedigree for the dog if it is endorsed. My breed are show as well as pets and are internationally reknowned so it’s important.

With regard to your provision for your dog in the event of anything happening, that’s fine because that’s something I would ask you. We could write that into the contract. It’s flexible, I’m not a dragon, and the coming back bit is as much protection for the owner as for me the breeder.

It’s probably not that enforceable, but someone being willing to sign is important. It has been looked at by a solicitor yes.

[Ylvamoon]

Llanali & Wolfiefan, your ideal is noble but very unrealistic. Having a litter every 5-6 yers? Great, I guess you have 6+ dogs in kennels or a very large house (stately home?). And even in your breeding scenario, you would eventually meet mum & dad at the same home.

Breeding to "keep the line" and waiting for years to get a puppy is very idealistic. I am not disputing that these people don't exits, but please think again. What about the couple in their early 60's wanting to enjoy retirement and raise a puppy? They don't want to wait years. The family with DC ages 8-10, by the time they would get a puppy, their lives could have changed and they might not have the time to raise a puppy, the DC would be self observed teens ...

The whole purpose of this thread is to highlight that the internet has made it very easy to "shift rogue puppies". ( = That is puppy farmers and illegal foreign imports.)
The supply and demand of puppies is definitely out of sync and playing into the hands of these people.
The popularity of x breeds made it easier to mass produce puppies. No paper trail or records of litters. Dam can have a litter every 6 months... who actually cares? A simple lie will sort it out.
There is nothing wrong with breeding dogs for the legitimate pet market. I think we need people breeding healthy, fit for purpose and to a good breed standard from their homes.
These are people making healthy puppies available, trying to undercut the rouge breeders. And yes, they will advertise on the dreaded intent sites so that people can have a choice and will be able to make the right decisions. Because for every puppy farmed there is a committed home breeder out there, trying to do the right thing for their breed. So, having a stud dog or breed 1-2 litters a year is not always a red flag. It just might be someone who actually cares about the dogs.

[Llanali]

No, I do not live in a stately home. And no, they do not live in kennels.

I have one puppy from my recent litter, her 6 year old mother, The now 11 year old grandmother and a 3year old bitch from another line to complement my bloodline in due course.

Ordinarily you take the bitch to the dog, because they mate better on their own turf, so no, the dog and bitch are never on my property together. I don’t understand what I wrote that would make you think that?

Owning a stud dog is not a red flag. Owning enough bitches to breed a litter every year from that dog would be a red flag to me though, because bitches In my breed should not be bred from before 3 or after 6. Ideally one litter from a bitch, two in exceptional circumstances.

Obviously I don’t expect every owner to wait for me; prospective owners such as the retiring couple or young family should approach the breed club who would point them towards good breeders who have expected pups. If I don’t have pups or can’t fulfill someone’s requirement I refer them to another reputable breeder and vice versa. So someone might wait years for one of mine specifically, but between our club with circa 15 breeders, we may be able to satisfy them elsewhere.


And of course it’s idealistic. Why shouldn’t it be? This is my hobby not a business model, and done to improve my ancient breed and preserve quality health and temperament. Not to satisfy every buyer who comes along and wants a pup.

[Llanali]

I do agree that there is nothing wrong with breeding to a legitimate pet mArket when breeding healthy sound and to standard animals.

I don’t agree that the broad internet is the place to advertise. Breed club websites, yes, pets4homes and gumtree? No. I want owners who have researched and looked into the history and archives of my breed. Not someone who can google “x breed pups in Yorkshire for sale”.

[ProfessorMoody]

Llanali & Wolfiefan, your ideal is noble but very unrealistic

No it isn't. This is what reputable breeders do.

Breeding to "keep the line" and waiting for years to get a puppy is very idealistic

No. It isn't. This is what reputable breeders do.

What about the couple in their early 60's wanting to enjoy retirement and raise a puppy

They prepare and do their research in advance. Or rescue.

There is nothing wrong with breeding dogs for the legitimate pet market

Yes. Yes there is. While there are hundreds of thousands of dogs in rescue centres, there is everything wrong with this.

[ProfessorMoody]

Hey, @Wolfiefan? Just so you know, we're being slagged off on the Reddit Mumsnet page, by the one on this thread who can't understand that I have a pug because I rescued it from being killed, and someone else who can't say they "hate me" on here

[Llanali]

What the hell is the reddit page?!

[ProfessorMoody]

It's a page where people go to bitch about people who post on Mumsnet, slate threads and laugh at others. Quite amusing.

[Llanali]

Oh I shall go on a hunt..... this could be a whole new world of entertainment!!

[continuallychargingmyphone]

You post there yourself.

[ProfessorMoody]

And your point is?

[continuallychargingmyphone]

My point is that it is a bit ridiculous to complain about people doing the very thing you complain about.

[Llanali]

Ha I’ve read it now. For the record, I never said anything about not allowing people who work to have dogs. I work, most of my owners do. They just don’t leave the dog alone unexercjsed for 8 hours a day. They have dog walkers, the dog goes with them, they work part time, family help out.... you know, all the normal stuff.

[Llanali]

I didn’t see any complaining going on?!

[ProfessorMoody]

Please point out where I was complaining.

[continuallychargingmyphone]

All is well then.

[ProfessorMoody]

I didn't mention anything about working either. I work and have dogs.

Unfortunately, people who have either bought dogs from the Internet, have been turned down by rescues or own something with poo or doodle in the made up name get very defensive because they know that they've been stupid and can't face up to it. Their guilt comes out.

If these people genuinely cared about dogs, they'd see why people like me and Wolfie are so passionate about doing things right. When they've seen what I've seen through working with dog rescues, perhaps they'd begin to understand. Piles of dogs die every day due to overbreeding in this country. If it's so wrong to want to stop this from happening then I'm more than happy to be wrong.

[Wolfiefan]

Meh. CBA to read it. If people feel so incensed that I believe nobody should buy from a less than reputable breeder for the sake of animal welfare then they should examine their own standards and values.
If people CBA to wait a bit and do it properly then I don’t believe they deserve a dog. Rescue or approach the breed club. It’s not rocket science. (And I only had to wait so long as my breed isn’t very common and I wanted a bitch. Not a dog.)
And having a litter or two a year. My bitch has two seasons a year. Having multiple bitches being bred from or breeding continually from one bitch is very far from ideal.

[agirlhasnonameX]

@Wolfiefan I understand now that this is what people should do. However I don't think statements like that help your cause at all.
I think a lot of people like me have been very poorly informed on the internet when it comes to breeding/buying puppies and there is a lot of contradictory information which for someone who hasn't a clue can be really confusing.
I'll admit I was stupid, but I cannot agree that I don't 'deserve a dog'. I couldn't rescue and I did research and contacted hundreds of breeders, none of those that where what I now understand to be reputable answered my emails or vms. Now I understand it does not quite work like this, but then I had no idea.
I didn't find him online but he had been online and I didn't know. I thought I was doing the right thing, looking for the right signs, asking the right questions.
I understand fully I was wrong for buying him and why and am grateful for having read this thread, however if someone said to me 'you don't deserve your dog' after everything I did go through to have one, just because I lacked full understanding, Id be really upset.

[Wolfiefan]

I didn’t mean you agirl. So many people want a pup, have a quick google and pick one up ASAP. The information is out there for prospective buyers if they do a bit of digging. Too many can’t be bothered.

[Alexaaaa]

I've got a poodle cross and I bloody love her. Her parents only ever had the one litter, they are friends of the family, we sometimes meet up with her littermates on walks.
She is crossed with a shih tzu.

We also rescued a pure bred shih tzu a month ago from a rescue charity where the poor thing was going to be PTS before they took her in. She'd not been vaccinated for 3 years and needs spaying (she had just finished a season when we got her).
We'd already decided on this charity and a rescue so were already homechecked.

My crossbreed shih tzu is a lot more robust than my pure bred shih tzu, shes' super intelligent, she can run faster, and her poodle nose has taken away the breathing problems shih tzus can have so I have no guilt whatsoever at having a poo cross.

[agirlhasnonameX]

Yeh ok I guess I have to agree with you there, can't think of any excuses for an adult to buy any animal on a whim and personally I can't help but sigh when people get any animal then are shocked at vet/insurance fees or at how tiring a puppy is or that their new shoes have been chewed to shreds, or that they are nipping kids hands or peeing everywhere, or in the case of reptiles that they are boring or bunnies that are so misunderstood as low maintenance great for kids pets.
I should have done a lot more digging and in hindsight thats becoming more obvious, but the vast majority of my research went into the specifics of a breeds/X's needs, health, cost, temperament, suitability, trainability, size etc.

[Wolfiefan]

At least you did research!! Many many people don’t bother at all. And even with all the research in the world animals are likely to throw us something we hadn’t considered. Be it a dog being reactive or a cat that is impossible to give pills to. And have I always got everything right with all my pets? No. There are always things I could do better.
Today I have spent the day decluttering the house as my darling wolfiepup has been in the vets all day. Now to watch for signs of pneumonia. It’s a great stress relief this owning pets lark isn’t it?!

[agirlhasnonameX]

Definitely always something new to learn, no two dogs are the same and personally I've never expected them to be anything, as I think this is also a mistake people make a lot.
I do owe a huge credit to my pets for helping with stress though, when I have a panic attack nothing calms me like animals, especially dogs. On the other hand I am just a little obsessive about making sure they are ok (even checking they are still breathing ) and worrying about every scenario possible. And I had a rescue husky x malamute who needed intense training, as much as I loved and miss her dearly, there was over a year of nothing but stress, she was enough to give anyone anxiety.
Hope your pup recovers soon, I'm sure s/he will. Sad to say I have never met a wolfhound in person