To wonder why anyone would buy a puppy through gumtree or the like?

[SummerGems]

I’m not talking so much about why people would buy a puppy from a backyard breeder as that’s a discussion in its own right, but why anyone would log on to their local gumtree, look up the pets for sale adverts, and call the owner and arrange to go and collect a living breathing animal without having first met the “breeder” the dogs or had anything to do with them before jumping in the car and coming home with said puppy, usually at vast expense.

Looking at my local gumtree there are puppies for sale for as much as £2000, and even one for £1700 which is described at being available at “the bargain price of.....” . A bargain? For a living animal? .

Why?

On some level I can sort of see how someone might know someone locally with puppies and end up taking one. I wouldn’t but I can see how it happens. But answering an advert on a buying/selling website and collecting an animal from a complete stranger after handing over often upwards of a grand for what might even be a mongrel masquerading as a genuine breed (i.e. cockerpoo/cavachon/labradoodle and I even saw one described as a pomchi the other day, just why would anyone do that?

“Especially as I just spend a handsome sum importing a beautiful stud dog for my 2 girls.”

But that’s not the norm, what is usually mean so is they just used dogs they happened to own without any thought as to whether they complement each other.

There are some things that raise red flags that do have exceptions, but I’m assuming if someone asked you why you own both parents, you’d tell them and that would be that.

Yep. I would assume that anyone who owned both parents was repeatedly breeding for profit and weren’t looking far and wide for the best sire for their pups. Why buy? Planning to breed several times?

Yep, planning to breed for a very long time. And I 'll stud him out for a hefty fee!!!
Wolfiefan, your comment shows how little you actually know about dog breeding. Don't dish out advice if you don't know all the facts and details.

A very long time? But you can’t breed from the same bitches for a very long time. Yes you can stud him out. Of course you can. Really good breeders don’t have litter after litter or breed several times from the same bitch.

Gosh, that sounds horrific.

Ddog was bought from gumtree 6 years ago as we had tried every rescue and been turned down because we had young kids at the time. Regret it now knowing everything about puppy farms and backyard breeders and I would never again. You really don’t know where the dog is coming from when buying from sites like that but I can see why people do when depending on where they are rescues can turn them down for even working from home (don’t understand this one myself)

yep. I would assume that anyone who owned both parents was repeatedly breeding for profit and weren’t looking far and wide for the best sire for their pups. Why buy? Planning to breed several times?

I agree with @wolfiefan

No need to have both dog and bitch, but we would expect photos and pedigrees and health checks of the dog, and be able to speak to the sire’s owners on the phone at least, we wanted to.

I wouldn’t want to see both stud and bitch in the home. I breed a rare breed, we have a litter every 5 or 6 years, never more than one litter from a bitch,we never breed down from one litter more than once...ie if litter A had three bitches and two dogs, and a dog was used at stud, we wouldn’t have a litter from the bitches. One generation down from each is sufficient.

We breed when we have a waiting list, first and foremost for ourselves because we are after something specific in terms of improvement.

I am not a novice, my family has been breeding this line for 45 years. And only once have we owned both dog and bitch ; it’s unusual. Most breeders keep bitches not dogs, and either go back to their owners for stud use, or outcross to another line with a stud owned by someone else.

My pups are all sold endorsed as not for breeding with the KC.

Llanali I wish more breeders were like you. Breeding for purpose. Eg the next generation. Focus on quality and longevity/health and temperament. Not quantity and profit.

Thanks @wolfiefan

It took three years....yes YEARS...to select the right stud doggie my most recent litter. I had people on my waiting list, officially rather than a casual “let me know when you’re next expecting pups”, for six months prior to mating. It’s honestly one of the most stressful things when you do it right, it’s a week of sleeping on the kitchen floor, days of comforting a labouring bitch and delivering pups, it’s heartache when/if you get stillborn pups, and then it’s 9/10 weeks of not leaving the house more than an hour, of vet checks, microchips, vaccinations, worming, waiting for eyes to open, waiting for testicles to drop, visitors such as fellow breeders or mentors/mentees coming to assess them, let alone to their prospective homes and all the home checking we do when they go on the list.

I never add up how much it costs. Honestly, roughly speaking, one pup pays for the stud fee, one pup is for me which I would otherwise have paid a fellow breeder for if I had chosen to bring some other blood in, one pup pays for whelping boxes and vet bedding and feed (human grade mince meat, eggs, special pup biscuits, sardines, etc), new for every litter for hygiene, and one pup pays for all the veterinary treatment including bitch health testing etc. And of course the cost of registering the litter, providing each owner with a full five gen pedigree etc.

My average is five in a litter, so that’s four pups to cover the costs, and one pup which is theoretically “profit”, except there was the five years of show fees, diesel, dog food, insurance, registration and affix fees, vets fees.........

See now why it’s better for my soul not to add it up on a spread sheet?

Yep. Completely. My dog is a giant breed and I’ve heard breeders say don’t even consider it unless you’ve got £10000 to cover all eventualities.
It’s a 24/7 physically and emotionally gruelling few weeks and doesn’t always end happily.
I waited over two years for my girl. Many breeders don’t keep an active list. (For lots of reasons. Many breed specific.) I’m tentatively on a list of a wonderful breeder and fabulous mentor who may (or may not) have pups next year.
I won’t breed from my girl. Not because she isn’t up to standard. Not because, with the right sire, she couldn’t have stunning pups. I won’t breed because I haven’t the ability, expertise or right set up at home to do a good job.

@Yvlamoon

I’m sure you are doing that for your own reasons, and that’s fine. Wolfiefan and I simply wished to point out, that as @Tabulaharasa said, tha5s unusual and would ordinarily raise flags, because it usually means “I owned a nice dog and a nice bitch and thought I’d mate them”.

You must know it would have been more common to simply import semen from the dog in the future, or indeed simply travel to the stud if in Europe, that’s what we do in our breed. It doesn’t make buying the stud wrong, just a long, expensive and risky way of doing it, in my opinion. You could have him for three years,(assuming you brought him in as a pup?) and realise that when mature he doesn’t fit the bill, or he may not do the deed, or whatever. Plus, keeping entire bitches and dogs in the house together during seasons is hell. I know, because I had a returned dog here until he died after his owners got divorced, and it was a screaming hell four times a year as my bitches didn’t come in to season together.

As I’m sure you know, those are the reasons most people do not buy in their stud dogs, instead use stud services of other owners. I’m just explaining for those others on thread, I’m sure you know this

@Wolfiefan how good to hear of someone happy to wait for the right thing. I’m sure part of this problem is our “have it now” society.

I have to be honest, I do love having pups in the house, but that doesn’t take away how expensive and how much hard work it is. I think your breeders are probably right, especially with giant breeds who can be more at risk of C sections etc.

We have never had a C section in 45 years, it’s very rare for our breed, and I am very firm that breeding dogs who you know will need C sections to deliver is wrong in my opinion. Some of these brachycephalic breeds, amongst other, 99% of the time need C sections, it’s expected. I’m of the opinion that if the breed couldn’t keep going, physically, without human intervention in this way, then we shouldn’t be breeding it. It’s unnatural.

Which is not to say that I wouldn’t C section if the bitch needed it, and I recognised emergencies happen, but that’s different from knowing before mating you will need to surgically deliver pups.

Anyway sorry, I appear to be on my soapbox. I’ll get down now.

Not everyone wants to rescue. A puppy fitted our family. The breeder is well known in the schnauzer “circles”. Giant Schnauzers rarely if ever come up for rescue because they are awesome

That is one bloody gorgeous dog, @geekone I’ve only ever seen one giant schnauzer IRL, plenty of little ones. Yet another breed that I could fancy in the future.

Stay on the soapbox! Shout loud until people listen!!!
I could’ve bought several wolfhounds online whilst waiting for my girl. But at what cost? What risk? And what about welfare implications?
My girl’s mum has had (and will have) only one litter.
Wolfhounds aren’t generally C section births normally. But yet another reason for me not to breed. Could I recognise an emergency? Definitely?
I’m not taking the risk.
Still want another one though!

Ok now I'm confused & feel bad that after researching before we got them, I've still done the wrong thing
I was aware of puppy farms but followed online advice about how to avoid them, so thought we had. Some of advice online was that having mom & dad there for viewings was a good thing?
Also, the parents & pups being KC registered was also supposed to be good. Is that pointless then? They'd also had official health checks, which we have paperwork for.
Other than getting the dogs from a rescue centre I'm not sure what else we should have done?
Can someone explain this to me (without being too brutal. Please bare in mind that like most ppl who don't breed dogs, I don't know all the ins & outs and really wanted to do best for the dogs).

@mrpoopybutthole you are probably fine. If you saw actual paperwork of health checks, that’s a great sign. As long as the addresses, names etc, all matched.

KC paperwork is important, in that if it doesn’t exist that’s a major warning for a pure bred, but it’s prescence alone does not guarantee a good breeder. It’s part of the bigger picture, making sure mum is with the pups, that the pups are registered and have seen the vet at least twice for checks, that the parents health tests are available for you to look at.

It also about having a contract from the breeder, and contact in the weeks/months after pup comes home. And whether the breeder home checked, or sent a local person from the breed club to home check on their behalf.

KC reg just mean they are a pedigree.
I saw pics of dad and met mum. (I’ve since met dad but he is a stud dog and not resident with my girl’s mum.)
Health checks aren’t really good for much. It’s a case of knowing the breed and the health tests the parents should have before breeding. With wolfhounds (for instance) parents should be heart tested and puppies liver shunt tested. (For starters.)
I’m a first time dog owner. I went through the breed club/society to find decent breeders. It took ages. But I’m happy with that.

Don’t panic now anyway. Are you happy with your new additions to the family? It’s done now.

Oh yes. We had a homecheck and an “interview”! And have a contract. Eg if anything happens to us the dog can only be rehomes through breeder. Etc

Health check paperwork for the parents, or the puppies?

For others reading ..... off the top of my head, if I were looking for a puppy, here’s a few things I would expect.

Health tests performed on the sire and dam, dependent upon the breed requirements,
KC pedigree for both sire and dam.
Dam present with pups.
Paperwork for the litter, including signed document from stud dog owner for the mating.

I’d expect the breeder to have a contract I needed to sign, I’d expect the pup to have non breeding and non export endorsements on the pedigree, I’d expect the breeder to grill me over the phone, and probably have a questionnaire for me to fill in. I’d expect a home check from either the breeder or a breed club representative.

I’d expect to have other people asked about me, I’d expect to visit the pups around 5/6 weeks, not to be allowed the pup before 8 weeks earliest.

I’d expect the pup to come with a menu sheet, first vaccination, microchip, KC five generation pedigree, records of health checks at vets at around 1 week, 6 ish weeks for microchips, 8 weeks for vaccination, I’d expect support from the breeder, and it would be nice if the pup came with a blanket that smelt like the mum.ideally the pup would come with a week or so of his biscuits, so that I could make a change gradually if I was intending to feed something different.

I would expect the pup to have been wormed with drontal or panacur at 2 weeks, 5 weeks and 8 weeks.

I’m sure there’s other things! It’s been a long time since I have bought a puppy, or sold one to someone I didn’t already know or wasn’t already acquainted with.

My contract is three pages long whoops!

It starts that I state the dam and sire in good health physically and with sound temperament, I state the pup is in good health when leaving me, that the parentage is as documented etc etc,

It makes the purchaser promise not to bring the breed into disrepute, not to breed the dog without my permission and without my input into a mating partner if I do agree to breeding, to promise that the dog comes back to me if for ANY reason they can’t keep the dog. It makes them promise they won’t sell, rehouse or otherwise transfer ownership of the pup without me, they promise to seek immediate veterinary treatment when required.

It highlights that we are always available, 24 hours a day for advice and support throughout the pups life. They must notify me when the dog dies, and they must call me if there is any significant illness or injury. They are free to bring the pup back here for holiday care etc if they so desire, and I promise to be available in the case of owner Ill health, temporary or permanent.

I have three extra dogs here now because their owner has had an appendicitis and is hospital. Only one is my breeding, but he is used to living with his mates, and I know their breeders too, so we all agreed the troop could come to me for a few days.

Oh bless. My girl boards with someone I met through the breed.
She came with food and a diet sheet and charts showing typical height/weights as pups grow. (A big thing for a giant breed!) Breeder intermittently asked for weight etc so as to keep track of the whole litter.
We meet up regularly. The breeder has given us valuable advice on everything from claw clipping and grooming to lead choices and feeding! (Poor lady!!!)
I read somewhere that you should choose a breeder as if this person were to be your MIL!!
Oh and no we can’t export without permission etc either. The contract came as part of a lovely booklet with advice about raising a wolfhound and details of health tests and weights and feeding etc. Plus lots and lots of puppy pics.

So as far as I can remember (was 5yrs ago):
Pups were health checked at vets
They had some kind of genetic testing
We saw some health testing paperwork for the parents
They'd been wormed
They hadn't been microchipped yet but we were going to get them done straight away
They didn't want to let them leave before 10wks but we wanted sooner, due to our circumstances, so came to an agreement to take them just after 9 weeks
We signed some paperwork which could have been a short contract but I thought was more to do with the money
They had them on Hills science(?) food & gave us a couple of weeks worth to continue with. I thought at the time that that was a good brand/food? So thought another good sign, as surely puppy farm wouldn't be as picky about the food

Yes to pp question, I am VERY happy with our two boys & love them more than anything!

Out of interest, how enforceable are these contracts?

What if the owner of one of your pups decided to breed and had a happy accident ? What could you do about it? Do you claim the dog back, and would you have the money for legal fees if it went to court?

If anything happens to me my dog goes to my mum or my brother. He knows them, he knows their dogs and spends his holidays there. Does that count as not returning to breeder should that happen? What if it were a close friend?

Have you had the contracts looked over by a solicitor and asked if they are enforceable?

If for example, i moved and didn’t tell my breeder, how would she even find me to keep in contact? If i went abroad (is that what is meant by export?) and took the dog could you stop me or insist the dog is returned?

I work in a legal field and dogs are generally treated as “property” legally speaking. Therefore the owner is the owner. Prove ownership and it is their property to do what they like with.