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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Csa

121 replies

Jamboree87 · 17/10/2018 22:59

I know this will be probably be a very unpopular thread but here goes....

My partner had a one nightstand a few years ago and was not informed of pregnancy but was told once said female had had the child. He pays csa but has no contact with the child as the mother has made things difficult let's say.

I'm not saying he shouldn't pay but they take an extortionate amount leaving us struggling most months.

I wonder what everyone's thought are on being made to pay csa when:

A) you were never informed of pregnancy and had no say whether you were willing to be a parent. Asking this as if a female is not ready she can decide either way regardless of the fathers wishes.

B) not being on the birth certificate, surely it makes sense that any parent paying csa should be on the certificate. You are paying for a child you have no say over.

I just want people opinions I feel so upset that we are constantly skint because the csa payments are so high and he gets nothing in return.

We have a child together and we struggle to put clothes on her back yet we pay £££ to child that he has no say over and never sees.

OP posts:
Onlyhappywhenitrains1 · 19/10/2018 10:12

No the 12% is after tax, ni pension abd half private pension, trust me i worked there and got grief when i would not take off other deductions.

But the 12% is calculated on gross. So it's 12% of 100% of his salary. That doesn't leave 88% for him does it. Because he still has tax and ni to pay too.

Howhot · 19/10/2018 10:25

Why did you have a child together if you claim you can't afford it? You knew he had another child to support then.

He should be making an effort for both of his children

sue51 · 19/10/2018 11:08

Onlyhappy, I think everyone realisises that cms is 12%Of gross income and as the op has a child that amount will be reduced.

Notacluewhatthisis · 19/10/2018 11:52

Why did you have a child together if you claim you can't afford it? You knew he had another child to support then.

I am betting op also got pregnant by accident, after only knowing him a few months.

DianaPrincessOfThemyscira · 19/10/2018 11:57

Easy to say you wouldn’t take the money in a hypothetical situation isn’t it?

YABU. I’m sorry you’re struggling but he has a legal and moral obligation to that child.

Also stop referring to women as females Hmm

MumOfTwoMasterOfNone · 19/10/2018 12:51

Whilst I don't think the way you have made your point was the best way, I understand some of what you're trying to convey.
CMS take a large proportion of take home pay from subsequent family income. The expectation for paying parents in funding subsequent children is MUCH less than the ones which are receipt of maintenance: however obviously all need to be provided for. It is not the subsequent child's fault, someone has another child, but it is often only the reverse situation which is trotted out on here particularly.
12% could be well over 18% of net pay and that is a lot of income for a family to lose, especially if they're surviving on one income. The earnings that the family don't get to keep also affect benefit entitlements as they are still classed as having been warned, even though they are not kept. Circumstances of both parties are not taken into account and I think that is a poor decision. As s the treatment of the residents parent say over the non resident parent. Many men do not choose to leave their families, but are forced into it and they are treated like criminals by this very broken system.

ohreallyohreallyoh · 19/10/2018 13:25

I’m sorry but I really don’t understand. How is expecting a parent to contribute to the cost of bringing up their childen trading them like a criminal?

And before declaring the system broken because poor men have to support their children, perhaps have a look at some of the statistics that show average maintenance payments and households where maintenance is due but goes unpaid. The system is indeed broken for thousands and thousands of children currently living in poverty because one of their parents makes a deliberate choice not to meet their obligations.

BitchQueen90 · 19/10/2018 14:39

@MumOfTwoMasterOfNone

If NRPs struggle to afford to pay for their current children then they shouldn't have more with their new partners. Simple as that. Maintenance should be factored into household bills just the same as any other bill before you decide if you can afford more children and for one of you to be a SAHP.

HereForTheLineEyes · 19/10/2018 15:00

*I’m sorry but I really don’t understand. How is expecting a parent to contribute to the cost of bringing up their childen trading them like a criminal?

And before declaring the system broken because poor men have to support their children, perhaps have a look at some of the statistics that show average maintenance payments and households where maintenance is due but goes unpaid. The system is indeed broken for thousands and thousands of children currently living in poverty because one of their parents makes a deliberate choice not to meet their obligations.*

Exactly.

Thenewdoctor · 19/10/2018 15:04

had no say

What say exactly should he have had? Forced abortion?

sue51 · 19/10/2018 16:01

Of course he did have a say in wether or not to use condoms, reducing the risk both of pregnancy and stds.

Thenewdoctor · 19/10/2018 16:02

Of course, but the op is talking about after the women was pregnant.

Thenewdoctor · 19/10/2018 16:02

From the op

A) you were never informed of pregnancy and had no say whether you were willing to be a parent. Asking this as if a female is not ready she can decide either way regardless of the fathers wishes.

MumOfTwoMasterOfNone · 19/10/2018 16:06

Where did I say that I don't think NRPs should contribute to bring up their children? Of course I think they should, but it should be fair, equitable, efficient and properly administered, which it is not. The staff should be properly trained and their systems updated to deal with the actual policy and procedure.

Those who do not pay and do not engage should be dealt with appropriately, but what I am trying to explain is that those who are willing, are treated extremely poorly in a lot of cases. They aren't always involved with CMS because they are unwilling to pay. They are there because maybe their ex refuses to contribute at all to the upbringing of their children, or wants to create problems for their ex, or thinks they can get more money out of their ex's new partner. They can lie about contact, earnings etc. to affect payments and there are absolutely no repercussions for them, but significant ones for the NRP. Some people are bitter and will take every opportunity to ruin someone's life, just because they can.

You would agree the system is broken? But you can't agree it's broken for both RPs and NRPs in different circumstances? People have different experiences and reasons for their opinions and I appreciate that. I understand some children have parents that don't pay and live in poverty and that is heartbreaking, but the OP wasn't talking about that situation and neither was I. I honestly don't think a lot of those statistical children would be lifted out of poverty by CMS payments. For a start, it doesn't count as household income so wouldn't affect official poverty statistics.

In your argument, where is the resident parents obligation to meet their children's needs? Or don't they have any? Can they solely rely on the state and their ex so they never have to work? Surely if a resident parents refuses to work, that contributes significantly to the poverty these children face and you can't put the responsibility on the one parent who may not be non-resident through choice?

My children wouldn't be classed as living in poverty if I was a single parent with no maintenance and I would try my best to keep it that way.

The child maintenance system has changed. You don't get to pick to stay on the old system as that's what you worked out whether you could afford a child on. So do you give the DC away you had under the old system when you factored the payment amount in to your 'household bills'? Life isn't black and white and situations change, as did the child maintenance system. At least twice that I know of. The calculation methods have altered dramatically.

There is also a lot of evidence to suggest strong links between non-resident parent (usually male) suicide and the child maintenance service, but for obvious reasons, this isn't advertised and money is not put into research in this area.

There are quite a few staff at the CMS who treat NRPs like criminals and a few reasonable and knowledgeable members of staff who actually get matters resolved. It is pot luck who you get on the end of the phone and allocated as a caseworker.

The aim is supposedly to support children, but all of you who have criticised my post, seem happy to see subsequent children suffer in poverty because their parents should have calculated their 'household bills' better.

My issues with the CMS are differences in the 'value' or 'cost' of children in different homes, the sole burden of proof on NRPs, the incorrect application of their own policy and procedures and the abrasiveness, threats, harassment and rudeness of SOME of the staff. There are a vast amount of maladministration cases ongoing with the CMS, because of some of the above. Tens of thousands of successful ones which result in compensation every year in fact and many don't get to that stage that should, as it's nigh on impossible to make a complaint, as this has to be made through a caseworker who you are likely to be complaining about (apparently). Many also can't afford legal representation for obvious reasons.

RedDrink · 19/10/2018 16:13

It's hard to know if it is an extortionate amount without knowing how much per month and how much he makes per year. From what I've seen usually women are getting far less than they need considering childcare costs often fall on them alone.

I'm shocked given the circumstances that he didn't request a paternity test and just took her word on it when he's not even on the birth certificate either. Actually he should have asked for one regardless.

silvercuckoo · 19/10/2018 16:15

The fact that he got someone pregnant on a one night stand and didn't find out until AFTER she had the baby is the 'version' of events he's chosen to give you. Once the mother gets an opportunity to put her story across, I bet you will find out the real truth.
This.
The CSA are unable to track an arbitrary guy from the night club for child support payments. There was a certain relationship between them.
I am also a "one night stand greedy gold digger" - or at least every new girlfriend of my ex seems to think so, and some of them decided to take the communication on financial topics into their own hands to save the poor guy. They are usually quite shocked to learn later that we were married with a joint mortgage and a pension plan, and that we actually have TWO children. Surprise surprise!

Barbie222 · 19/10/2018 16:30

Why don't you have access? Why doesn't he have PR? Has he tried? If not, you have your answer to his character right there. If he has been refused access by a judge, then you have the answer to his character right there. Seems like she dodged a bullet!

HereForTheLineEyes · 19/10/2018 17:15

If an ex lies about a NRP's income surely the NRP can just provide a payslip or a bank statement or a letter from their employer? I imagine a lot of RP don't actually know how much their ex earn, especially if it was a one night stand or a fling.

People can't be forced to work. If the RP (as you said often the women) chooses not to work and to live off benefits and CS payments then that's a choice that they make.
My ex chose not to work for the first 5 or 6 years of our sons life. I'd have loved him to, it was tough on my own, but I can't force him.
There are plenty of people sitting on benefits who are perfectly capable of working, which i very much disagree with, but that's a different problem and not related to the CSA. Depending on how many children are on the claim it might not make financial sense for the RP to work by the time they pay out for childcare.

My ex works F/T now and i get £130 a month. It's nothing in the scheme of money required to bring up a child. My son's childcare costs used to be £600 a month, and that's before you take into consideration food, fuel, clothes etc. If people are managing to live off their ex's their ex's must be earning into 7 figures.

BitchQueen90 · 19/10/2018 17:25

@MumOfTwoMasterOfOne the RP IS meeting their children's needs by being the main caregiver. They are the one who is paying the everyday bills, looking after the children the majority of the time, buying most of the food and clothes, doing the school pick ups. And this idea that a RP can choose not to work is absolute crap, you cannot choose not to work once your children are in full time education - you are then made to go on JSA and actively look for work.

I don't think subsequent children should live in poverty but all too often the NRP (usually a man) goes off and starts a new family and then stops taking responsibility for their children from previous relationships.

ohreallyohreallyoh · 19/10/2018 17:54

Sigh. Same old, same old. Please provide evidence of suicides in NRPs that result directly as a result of the CMS/CSA. Pretty much impossible to quantify since many people struggling with this issue are also likely also to be suffering with issues related to break up/ divorce.

As above, there is no choice not to work. Those days are long gone. In fact, there is plenty of evidence that single parents are worst hit by Universal Credit. I myself will be around £2k worse off annually when finally moved across. My ex still won’t have to pay maintenance. As for complaints..,yeah well, 10 years and counting without maintenance so I know all about that. No one cares. In fact, there are those who are happy to tell me it’s all my fault because I married him in the first place.

Tens of thousands of cases of maladminstration by the CSA annually? Evidence?

Your child might not be classed as living in poverty. Plenty are. Your post once again suggests that’s my problem to solve. I work 3 jobs and am still entitled to Tax Credits. I am not sure what else I could do. I am well educated but I can’t pursue promotion because it would mean earlier mornings and later evenings and there is no childcare.

And yes, it is absolutely up to an NRP to understand their obligations and not have additional children if they can’t afford it. I get the point you can’t remove children when things change but your expectation is that I tolerate my children living with £zero support so their father is able to move on and have additional children who should not experience poverty. That’s not OK.

And whether I work or not, I take responsibility for my children every day. Totally unacceptable to suggest otherwise.

The issue really is to stop accepting, as a whole society, the lack of financial support for children. Stop having children you can’t support. Laying equal blame with both parents when children are born rather than makin g it the mother’s issue alone.

Soubriquet · 19/10/2018 18:09

Has he taken a DNA test??

He needs to take one.

Once the child is proven his, he will have to suck it up and carry on paying.

After all, he did the deed too. She didn’t go and get pregnant by herself. He was just as responsible as she was

Opheliasgoldenwine · 19/10/2018 19:23

Irrelevant to the money but if it really only was a one night stand, I would 100% insist on a DNA test if I were him. Not to worry you at all but just to be sure.

Jamboree87 · 20/10/2018 09:46

@MumOfTwoMasterOfNone thank you so much for your posts!

Yeah the system is completely wrong. Think that's why there is so much resentment between parties as the system doesn't give a toss about anyone's circumstances receiving or paying which cause a lot of frustration.

When my oh was made redundant we phoned to explain and they put that payment would stop until he got back on his feet and that we wouldn't be penalised with arrears.

When he got a job a very low payed one at that! he was told he had over £1000 of arrears and they conveniently haven't got anything on record saying that he wouldn't have arrears.

So now they are taking far more than we can really afford off and are pretty rude when we try and come to a better arrangement but they don't care.

OP posts:
IStandWithPosie · 20/10/2018 10:56

How much does he earn and how much are “they taking”? (Or rather, is he paying for his child)

BitchQueen90 · 20/10/2018 11:29

So he's paying back arrears basically. That won't be forever though.

And of course he should be paying arrears. The cost of a child doesn't stop when you are out of work. I'm a RP and if I were made redundant from my job I would still have to find a way to feed and clothe my child.

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