To think that "gay cake row" verdict is a victory for common sense?

[MaxDArnold]

The UK Supreme Court has ruled that a Belfast bakery was not obliged to bake a cake emblazoned with the slogan "support gay marriage" and over turned a £500 damages award over turned on it.

For those unfamiliar with the case more information can be found here.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/10/uk-supreme-court-backs-bakery-that-refused-to-make-gay-wedding-cake

Am I being unreasonable to think that this was absolutely the right call, and a victory for personal and religious freedom? I don't think anybody should be forced to facilitate political slogans which that profoundly disagree with.

Bi11ybutton.... it's all well and good to say NOBODY should hold those views (dangerous ground though), but you're forgetting that gay marriage is still currently illegal in northern Ireland. Would the bakery have been wise to bake a cake which wanted to support something currently illegal?

Everyone is entitled to hold their own person views. Ashers did not refuse to cause hurt or harm to the individual in question because of their sexuality. It was because of the message. Would you expect a bakery owned by a gay rights activist couple to ice a cake saying "Marriage is between a man and a woman only"? It's the same thing.

I agree with the ruling for one reason, and one reason only.

The original ruling made it impossible for anyone to decline to promote a political slogan they disagreed with. At all.

While I disagree with the bakers for saying they disagree with gay marriage, the original ruling would have meant people being compelled to make things which supported white supremacy, racism, disablism, homophobia, Nazi slogans and other fucking awful dreadful things.

So, while I profoundly disagree with the bakers, and would never use them, I also profoundly disagree with the original ruling and the legal precedent that it set, so I am relieved that it’s been overturned

For all who say it's okay to be racist and homophobic, why have just spent the who summer arguing about anti semantic views in the Labour party, why is feminist chat full of TRA angst, what about paedophiles, can they hold their views. What about the sectarian violence in Northern Ireland and western Scotland, what about Islam terrorists or the far right ones?
God you lot scary the shit out of me, and the future of my 2 boys country.
What happen to letting live, and keeping your opinions to your self, if you want to sell wedding cakes, as they did, you have to sell all wedding cakes.
Or you should have to say your a right wing christain owner, and I can then shop elsewhere, like I as a meat eater, avoid Vegan and Vegetarian restaurants and as an ex herdsman, I avoid all Jewish/Muslim butchers, as Kosher and religious slaughter methods are inhumane.
As this is about freedom of speech, their right not to ice a cake, surely I as the customer, as an atheist, ex CofE, should have the right to know so I fail to waste my hard earned cash supporting their outdated views. Works both ways freedom

I was a bit surprised and uncomfortable with the verdict. I do see why the court ruled in this way and in the same way I would refuse to bake a cake which had homophobic slurs on. However, I do see this as a bit of a slope. I do think that people who are homophobic/Islamaphobic/racist etc will probably see this ruling as providing permission to discriminate. I think by choosing to do this and specifically targeting a bakery they knew would object, the cake buyer has really shot themselves in the foot trying to prove a point. I think to change attitudes you need to educate not make demands and try to sue people into changing their views.

As an aside, the cake design was fucking awful from purely a design point of view.

Why can’t the bakery come out for what they are ? Biggots

For all who say it's okay to be racist and homophobic

No one has said anything of the sort.

I’d rather live in a society where a vanishly small minority held intolerant views, than one where there was a forced narrative of what was and wasn’t an acceptable thought.

bigot noun - a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.

Not being a bigot means accepting that other people are entitled to their own opinions, even if we find their opinions offensive.

I support marriage equality. However, I agree with the judgement. The bakery did not refuse to supply a customer with a cake, they refused to ice a cake with a message they strongly disagreed with.

Actual freedom of speech is not endless, What if the Asher's bakery now decide to make homophobic and sectarian cakes, I bet if you walked in last year and ask for a cake celebrating hetrosexual marriage, they wouldn't have rang back two days later and said NO.
So they are bigots, I can see that, sadly look at Ester McVey, she too is a bigot, with her views on Universal credit, and it's my right to say so.
Or should we still have signs saying NO Dogs, Blacks or Irish, and probably NO Queers too freedom of thought after all.

No, freedom of speech is not endless. We have laws to stop discrimination so, NO Dogs, Blacks or Irish, and probably NO Queers too is illegal.

I agree that they are bigots.

Ester McVey, she too is a bigot, with her views on Universal credit, and it's my right to say so

Ok and no-one can force you to say otherwise and ice it on a cake.

Freedom of thought and expression are, in my opinion, far more important than freedom from discrimination. Without freedom of thought and expression gay people (like me) would never have had the right to even express the idea that marriage between gay people should be legalised. We simply cannot fight discrimination if we stop people from speaking.

Okay AlalindShade
So it's okay to hold thoughts that stop gay people expressing their rights, okay to hold thoughts like the population of the 1950 and 1960's that said NO Blacks and No Irish. Okay to say unmarried mothers should be sectioned and never realised.
NI is against same sex marriage and abortion, I really wonder, if it has a place in 21st century Britain any more, maybe we should let it become independent.

It’s not exactly a good advert though for the bakery or NI though is it. I’m really shocked views like that are so prevalent there. (Don’t think I’ll be visiting.sad)

NI is against same sex marriage and abortion, I really wonder, if it has a place in 21st century Britain any more, maybe we should let it become independent.

The irony of posters accusing others of bigotry, while judging a whole population.

PositivelyPERF I thought the same.

2BoysandaCairn you’re missing the point. The original ruling against the couple set a legal precedent, in that they (and anyone else who was taken to court) would have been compelled to make whatever people asked of them.

So although I wholly disagree with their opinion on same sex marriage, I also disagree with a ruling which would have given voice to the kind of attitudes you’re so against.

That’s why I agree with the second ruling.

So it's okay to hold thoughts that stop gay people expressing their rights, okay to hold thoughts like the population of the 1950 and 1960's that said NO Blacks and No Irish @2boys - how do you propose stopping people thinking thoughts you don't like?

"As this is about freedom of speech, their right not to ice a cake, surely I as the customer, as an atheist, ex CofE, should have the right to know so I fail to waste my hard earned cash supporting their outdated views. Works both ways freedom"

You've literally spent your whole post explaining how you do exactly that and do avoid businesses who's policies you disagree with

NI is against same sex marriage and abortion, I really wonder, if it has a place in 21st century Britain any more, maybe we should let it become independent.

Oh look, an ignorant and uneducated comment about Northern Ireland. Colour me surprised .

I disagree entirely with the bakers, not least because I'm a bit on the bent side myself. But this was the right legal decision, because nobody should be forced to ice a bloody cake with a political message they profoundly disagree with.

They weren't refusing to serve the gay customers, just refused to write out something they could not agree with.

For all who say it's okay to be racist and homophobic

Nobody is saying this. Wind your neck in, 2BoysandaCairn.

Archeryanne
Look at who funded all appeals they are totally homophobic. Ian Paisley DUP MP wants the NI equality commission funding stopped.
My youngest DS school rough Yorkshire comp, had emergency assemblies for all years 7 to 13, thats 1500 to tell them that LGBT students still had rights and where welcome. Eldest DS university has sudden put up signs tell all LGBT students that they have never been more welcome. Its LGBT society has twitted and emailed all students offering support. He hss 2 of 6 flatmates who are LGBT, they are worried. DS is horrified, they all went out last night to show them they are still mates. Local library suddenly has LGBT friendly posters up. 2 local cafes have same signs up. We are a very working class/ lower middle area, the local police has used social media to remind LGBT of hate crime laws.
I am truely horrified.
Thats what you get when 5 highly priveledge rich judges who live in posh SE gated communities making rulings and do not think of the vunerable people they have thrown under buses.
I hope no one is beaten up or killed after Wednesday, though my LGBT friends still fear this in virtually every city they go to.
2018. RIP tolerant Britain

2BoysandaCairn I sincerely hope you are not using Ian bloody Paisley as an example of the people of Northern Ireland!

Because not only is that spectacularly ignorant, it’s also quite offensive.

I’m starting to wonder if you just enjoy writing the full words of those awful window signs people used to have to make a point.

Helen
I work with 2 NI work colleques and dated an Derry girl for 2 years, so no Ian Paisley is an example of an elected DUP MP. I know lovely NI people who are totally devastated by the actions of the bakery.
But the Christian Institue, the DUP and the right wing evangelial prostenant churches completely support the bakers.
by the way that was one line in a 100, showing how LGBT friends and locals are scaried and who our community is despairly trying to defend it I notice all on here and other thread completely ignore who the LGBT community feels. One of eldest DS friends was attaked only this spring for been seen leaving a pub used by local LGBT, he nearly lost an eye, his girlfriend lost 3 stone through worry. I lost a gay friend to suicide because his Christian patents refused to accept him. Another friends sister was beaten up for hilding hands with a girl. You all seem so naive

LGBT bashers wont read mumsnet to find the full ruling, they will see headlines say supreme court backs anti gay cake bakers and have a field. Our local police service cant keep up with the previous levels of hate crimes. God help them.

So very glad that the "worlds gone mad with PC" crowd are now back in charge. I will follow your advice, take my freedom of expression you all hate away and try and help my 2 DS and there LGBT friends stay safe and realise we love all of them.

My word, that was a spittle-flecked post that had nothing to do with the court ruling.

But it would have won a gold in the VIrtue Signalling Olympics, so at least there's that.

I’m bi-sexual and I would totally not want to make a cake saying “down with gay marriage” so I totally agree with them... No one should be forced into having to publish views they don’t believe in.

But it would have won a gold in the VIrtue Signalling Olympics, so at least there's that.

2BoysandaCairn first of all, Helen is nowhere in my username. I wish people would read!

Secondly, the DUP, the Christian institute and the right wing evangelical churches aren’t an accurate representation of the people of Northern Ireland either!

You’ve literally picked the most extreme examples and then branded an entire country of people!

It would be like saying that Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and Tommy Robinson represent the views of the whole of England.

Lazy, and also wrong.