They have no clean drinking water and it’s your fault!

[Neapolitanicecream]

Watched Stacy Dooley “Fashion dirty secret” on BBC last night. Lost sleep over it. Michael Gove is clueless on the poisonings of water for millions of people. It’s a disaster and it’s our fault with buying cheap cotton. We need to do something! Kids are being poisoned 🤢 it made me cry

ppeatfruit "I only had children because my sister and brother did not"

going OT, that's an unusual reason!

another positive about programmes like this, govt policy is ultimately set up so that big business can make as much money as possible. so they will ask councils to turn off street lights at night - fun for the ambulance who last took my mum at 2am with no street lights on - but they will encourage corporations to make as much money as possible.

I don't consume much, but from what I see I have very little hope of people saying "no, enough". Maybe programmes like this will help, I don't know.

"I suspect the charity shops are overwhelmed with the fast fashion and barely sell any of it on."

It is also having an effect in some parts of africa etc.

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/06/second-hand-clothing-donations-kenya

It's become quite a convaluted problem.

Malthusianism: named after Robert Malthus who argued that an increasing population would outstrip food supply. However that was in 1798 and he didn't foresee the development of technology which enables humans to exploit our environment to produce far more food/shelter/energy/goods.

So as well as consuming less/better, humans will also invent technological solutions so we can continue consuming more but with less negative impact. There must still be a population limit but I don't think anyone can accurately predict the number. I bet we can squeeze in a few more billion though.

( Ppeatfruit to stop email notification go into Talk, click drop down arrow at rhs, choose Customise and you'll have a tick box to turn off notifications.)

The contraception we need is a male one. There are hoards of women in developing nations who have unwanted pregnancy after unwanted pregnancy, because men want sex.

If male fertility were controlled, millions of pregnancies could be avoided.

I would love to know what plan the OP thinks we all (including them) should implement to stop this. 🤔

I also agree with whoever said you're being unreasonable for bumping your own sanctimonious thread.

oh, so you got to reproduce? I’m alright, Jill, pull up the ladder?

But luvsmall you could use that argument about countless things. Dental treatment used to be free, now it isn't, and those who brought that in had free treatment up until then. So they pulled up that particular ladder. The world has changed. Our parents got to retire at 60 and 65. Now we are going to have to slog ourselves on until 68, probably 70 by the time I get to "pensionable age".

The past is the past. Just because we used to do something doesn't mean we can carry on the same way until the end of time. Otherwise why are we bothering with reducing plastic, eliminating carbon emissions? BECAUSE THEY ARE KILLING THE PLANET - for your children, their children, and their children, let alone us now, billions of other creatures. WE are potentially committing suicide as a race, longer term, but hey, never mind, let's just do all these little things of little consequence and stick our heads in the sands about the big picture as long as I can do and have what I want and fuck the greater good.

It's all very well talking about human rights but if the humans are in danger of wiping themselves out, I see nothing wrong in exploring and discussing ALL the options properly.

*The contraception we need is a male one. There are hoards of women in developing nations who have unwanted pregnancy after unwanted pregnancy, because men want sex.

If male fertility were controlled, millions of pregnancies could be avoided.*

Well said - this is the answer. Educating women may indeed result in a lower birth rate, but in many countries the women are not the ones who have any say in the matter. Men want sex, men want to feel 'manly' by having many offspring (preferably male of course). It's a cultural problem, but what government would be brave enough to tackle it and used forced birth control?

how is it not Gove's portfolio, he has Environment

That means he is responsible for safeguarding the UK's natural environment, not that he has any responsibility for the environment in other countries.

I'm not sure Catholics (in Europe anyway) are still having large families. I'm Irish Catholic, my gran had 4 children but only 5 grandchildren, and between all five of us we have only had 5 children. I went to an RC school and my RC friends all had one or two children. Dh is Italian, and one of six - none of his siblings had more than two children.

Law of unintended consequences - second hand clothing wiping out developing industry in poor nations, and many others. LiveAid/BandAid decided to donate food instead of money to stop theft by corrupt government officials - most of the food rotted at the docks and helped no one. In the 80s infants were dying as there was no water in areas, now the wells were dug and people are being poisoned as the soil is full of arsenic and other poisons so the infants are dying instead in their teens and early adulthood. It sucks but each solution has its own problems and I don't know how to fix it but wailing about economic activity alone won't fix it as those economic activities may be stopping something worse.

Obviously we cannot police lowering the birth rate but it needs to become socially unacceptable to have more than 2 children in the same way using plastic is. David Attenborough has some very interesting views on population.

We urgently need to get control of our population. Nothing else we do will make any difference whatsoever.

Totally agree.

The only thing that's going to solve this problem is monetising pollution. Let every product sold anywhere, anytime, bear its actual cost, backed by an exchange of pollution rights & remediation.

It's a fucking disgrace.

i haven't seen the prog but am in agreement with shatners, it's no use bleating on that the government has to do something. It is up to us to reduce our impact/footprint. Ask yourself have you cut down on travel/foreign holidays, driving (do you absolutely need a huge SUV when living in town, meat eating etc.
As an example the govt hasn't increased fuel duty for several years because people complained that fuel was too expensive, a lower real cost of fuel will lead to more driving and bigger cars.

Obviously we cannot police lowering the birth rate but it needs to become socially unacceptable to have more than 2 children in the same way using plastic is. David Attenborough has some very interesting views on population.

Totally agree. The cultural transformation re: plastic is nothing short of pretty magical, when you consider where we were a year or two ago. Same needs to happen, again and again.

Ask yourself have you cut down on travel/foreign holidays, driving (do you absolutely need a huge SUV when living in town, meat eating etc.

It's no use relying on goodwill. Pollution has to cost money.

Mother Nature is helping with birth control - sperm counts in developed world have dropped by half in the last 40 years: www.scientificamerican.com/article/sperm-count-dropping-in-western-world/
I also believe like Spanish Flu we will have a pandemic that will cut populations drastically. In Uni in 1985 we advised that there will be a major pandemic before December 2026 - not long now!

It was a thought-provoking documentary. Interesting that none of the fashion/hight st brands would comment or show responsibility for their supply chain. It was trying to say that as consumers (and voters) we are in a position to help fashion change - both in our consumption habits and in recognising the environmental/human cost of cheap clothes. It’s not about preaching, more about realising that the customer isn’t just an innocent pawn in something that’s a global problem because we have some choice as to what, and how much, we buy. The frustration with Gove’s department’s response (he wouldn’t comment himself) was that they answered a totally different question to the one that SD asked. It’s a complex problem with no quick fix but she was right to raise the issue and she did it both well and informatively.

Yes, yes, yes to a male contraceptive.

The only thing that's going to solve this problem is monetising pollution. Let every product sold anywhere, anytime, bear its actual cost, backed by an exchange of pollution rights & remediation.

Plane fuel is not even taxed and the air industry is one of the biggest polluters.

I didn't see the programme (will try catch up later) however regarding cotton fabric, have bought, and returned to TKMaxx a not so cheap cotton bedding set which reeked of chemicals even after 3 washes, hadn't realised at the time of purchase that it was made in China but once I realised I knew the treatment they use would never come out.

I have just bought another set, good cotton, Italian, which smells the same although not as strong. I bought elsewhere and again forgot to check the country of origin but judging by the smell it is also from China. It was more expensive than the previous one. Am currently trying to remove the smell.

Cotton is not the only toxic product from China, look at the amount of plastic they produce, read the IKEA labels and see where it comes from, not just IKEA but because a lot of us buy their plastic items. IKEA with the well advertised sustainable wood supply.

Apparently some Indian cotton is also treated and smells bad. China uses formaldehyde, not sure about India.

@THEson Mother Nature is helping with birth control - sperm counts in developed world have dropped by half in the last 40 years

Indeed. But at the same time, science comes up with "test tube babies" and IVF.

@Harpingon Yes, I mentioned Attenborough upthread too. Everyone lauds him, but they rarely listen to him on this front for some reason. Answer: because it's too personal and everyone protects their individual human rights and selfish wants over the greater good. For a supposedly intelligent creature, man is also incredibly selfish.

The only thing that's going to solve this problem is monetising pollution. Let every product sold anywhere, anytime, bear its actual cost, backed by an exchange of pollution rights & remediation

But then we wouldn't ever have any progress. Electric cars from cradle to grave of all components ARE MORE environmentally damaging than a petrol Range Rover. Should we ban electric cars? Tesla couldn't sell their cars for what it costs to make them - he hopes to one day but right now they knowingly sell at a loss on every car.

In France (possibly other countries?), having a ‘famille nombreuse’ (3+ kids) means fairly extensive tax benefits on income tax. Also other financial advantages - you pay less for school fees, activities, train tickets, childcare etc. I can think of 5 families in my small village with families of 4, 5 and even 6 kids. It is not a big village (1500 habitants) and two of those families are not religious.