Who was in the wrong? (Driving related)

[PookieDo]

Car A and B are driving down a dual carriageway that has a section of 50mph speed limit and the rest is 70

Car A comes out of the 50 section in the left lane and picks up speed, coming up behind car C still going 50. The road is pretty empty bar car B which is in the right hand lane some distance behind - at least 20 + car lengths who has also just come out of the 50 zone and picking up speed

Car A sees car B in mirror but due to speed of car C either has to brake or overtake Car A pulls out and overtakes car C quickly going back into left lane but does not realise car B is going 90mph.

Car B is very angry and had to slam on brakes although car A does not stay in right hand lane for any longer than needed to overtake 1 car

Car B driver flashes lights beeps horn multiple times even once has passed car A, then makes offensive gestures pulling level with car A then at the next roundabout opens window and shouts at car A driver for being a stupid ***

Clearly car B did not react very well but was this proportionate to what car A did, a normal driving manoeuvre making the assumption that car B was going around 70mph and therefore had plenty of time?

Yep, car A is at most fault. Obviously B didn't need to get aggressive and shouty about it, and shouldn't have been doing 90 (how would you know?!), but A should have been able to judge B's speed and wait for him/her to pass before pulling out - it is unreasonable for A to have assumed B would be doing 70 just because 70 is the limit, the whole point of driving is to pay attention to the actual conditions around you, not just what the signs say. Also, unless C was about to turn off or something, it sounds as though C was going dangerously slowly.

In answer to your second question, you don't have to wait for the right hand lane to be empty, but you have to wait until it is empty enough that you can pick up speed to match the traffic in it without causing anyone else to brake. Either that or indicate and wait for someone to let you in.

The thing is car accidents are not always (or even often) completely all one person's fault. Car B driver was breaking the law by speeding so if an accident had occured they probably should be allocated the majority of fault.

Car A driver was also however probaby guilty of inattention and impatience and probably made a split decision to overtake car C without being complete aware of the full conditions surrounding them

As car A approached car C, they should have been aware that car C was going more slowly than they were. Given this situation and anticipating having to overtaker car C, they should have checked their mirrors. They then would have seen idiot in car B speeding on their inside and and should have slowed down and waited for them to pass. It is usually obvious if an idiot is speeding down the outside lane much faster than you are if you check your mirrors properly

For those saying car C was at fault, they definitely were not at fault. It is fine to drive at 50mph in a 70mph zone, particualrly just as the limits are changing from 50mph to 70mph. Just because it makes you feel impatient with them does not make what they are doing wrong. It irritaes me too but that is my problem not theirs

On balance, then I would ay car B more at fault but car A also some fault, though less of the reckless type and more of the inattention type
The behavour afterwars (shouting and gesturing is equally bad from both though understandable - humans often misbehave when they have had a bad fright!)

Car A driver was in the wrong for failing to correctly judge the speed of Car B and forcing it to brake.

Car B driver sounds like an arse.

If driver of Car B was still at the next roundabout when Car A got there he couldn't have been getting anywhere very quickly despite his speed!

Also, What is a reasonable distance to see a car and use your judgement that overtaking a slower car will not affect cars going faster

This depends a lot on how fast your car can accelerate, which only you as the driver know. Obviously it also depends on things already mentioned, e.g. the speed of the rest of the flow of traffic, but a major part will be conditioned by how quickly you can get up to speed.

If driver of Car B was still at the next roundabout when Car A got there he couldn't have been getting anywhere very quickly despite his speed!

I thought that, too. Either that or the roundabout was sufficiently close that A didn't need to have overtaken before getting to it.

1. Car A should have observed car C much earlier.
2. Car C being there does not give car A a "pass" to overtake if there is oncoming traffic. Car A needs to plan better and wait for Car B to pass.

Car A has exhibited some very bad perception of speed and other road users twice in one short example.

Car B's driver shouldn't have swore, flashed lights, etc but Car A was in the wrong from a driving pov.
It sounds as though Car A either completely misjudged Car B's speed - which is Car A's fault. Or Car A was so impatient that even though they knew Car B would have to slow, Car A pulled out anyway.
As for how you are meant to ever overtake, you are supposed to bring your speed up as close as possible to the lane you're moving into or wait until there is a big enough gap in traffic that your slow speed won't cause another car to brake.

What is a reasonable distance to see a car and use your judgement that overtaking a slower car will not affect cars going faster

It depends on a whole load of circumstances - there's no one set answer. It depends on the speed of traffic, what other cars are doing, the weather, how fast your car can go, how fast other cars are going, what's the speed limit, is it going to change soon etc etc.

if you waited for the right lane to be empty on a dual carriage way would you never really be able to pull out at all? What is a reasonable distance to see a car and use your judgement that overtaking a slower car will not affect cars going faster

I don't understand this question. You don't move into a faster lane to overtake unless you can at least match the speed of the cars coming up behind you. If you do that, you don't need a massive massive gap, just one big enough to allow for a safe distance between cars etc. It is tricky sometimes to judge the speed of other cars coming up in in a lane outside of yours, but those really speeding are usually obvious (to ma enayway, they are getting closer to you much faster than is normal/usual). Before pulling out, you take a couple of seconds to observe how faast the cars in the outside lane are going before indicating and moving into the lane. Usually the difference is speed is small so it is fine. Car A in this instance assumed the other car B was going at a reasonable (for the road) speed but they did not properly check. If they had looked, a car doing 80-90mph in a 70mph is usually quite obvious.

Car A's fault. It knew B was going too fast so by cutting B up, he had to brake. So A nearly caused an accident, it could have been a pile up. Next time let the faster car pass first before changing lanes.

PookieDo Some questions: if you waited for the right lane to be empty on a dual carriage way would you never really be able to pull out at all? What is a reasonable distance to see a car and use your judgement that overtaking a slower car will not affect cars going faster

The thing is, had you been observing things better, you (car A) would have seen C was driving slower than you as you approached, and you would also haso seen B approaching faster. You didn't.

So it's not a case of you moaning you will "never" be able to overtake, you just need to improve your spatial awareness of other road users. As pp say, your actions should never really cause another driver tpo have to alter their course or slam on their brakes etc - whatever speed they were going it is not really relevant.

This is why you should always be planning well ahead when driving not waiting until your faced with the “slam on or cut someone up” decision. So many drivers wait until the last second to react rather than being aware of their surroundings.

(I'm not sure this thread is going quite how OP hoped )

Car A shouldn’t have been in a position where they either had to brake or overtake. They should just have waited behind car C until it was safe to pull out without making someone slam their brakes on. Car A misjudged the speed of B.

B is an idiot for going so fast if they were doing but evidence does show that most people over estimate the speed others are doing in such a situation. So unless you’re driver B ( I assume you’re A) and could see the speedo you don’t know the we’re doing 90mph.

Car B does sound like they overreacted but maybe they had the fright of their life. If they’re doing possibly 70mph and someone pulls out right in front of them?

Car A needs to learn to judge others speeds better, if someone is doing 90mph even more reason not to pull out in front of them at the last minute! B needs to not speed if they were doing and also needs to chill out.

Car A needs to learn to read a road and drive to conditions better - just because B is speeding doesn't give A the right to pull out on them, that is just dangerous driving. They were aware car in front still doing 50 and should have adjusted speed earlier to remove need to break, they would then have been able to use mirrors properly, judge speed of traffic in outside lane before signalling and moving to join.

B's reaction was unnecessarily aggressive and they had no right to anger given they was also driving recklessly due to speed and also not reading the road and understanding what action A was likely to take given relative speed to C.

A would have been at fault in any incident regardless of the illegality of B's actions however insurance would have adjusted to take into account B's activity would have contributed to the seriousness of any impact so would prob end up 50/50 or 70/30. Increasingly insurance co go knock for knock these days

Car A - should have exercised better situational awareness/judgement
Car B - is breaking legal speed limit
C - should at least be driving to the limit if it was possible in that particular traffic flow.

So all at fault IMO. But A & C the most

which one was you ?

And I find if I’m stuck in the inside land and indicate somebody at some point will flash to let me out.

Or you plan it better so you pull out sooner when you still have space in the inside lane to get your speed up and match the outside lane a bit better. If someone is doing between 20-40mph more than you and you just pull out in front of them it’s not good. And if B had to slam the brakes on then A did pull out in front of them.

If Car A was paying attention and checking properly before making the manoeuvre, they would surely have become aware that Car B was gaining on them and therefore that they should not pull out. If they put Car B into the position of having to slam on his brakes, that was seriously bad driving.

Having said that, driver of Car B is a dickhead for being such an arsehole about it. If you can't cater for the possibility that sometimes other drivers make mistakes, and can't cope with their mistakes without multiple horn-beeping and offensive gestures, you shouldn't be on the road.

Car B was definitely in the wrong here and should not have pulled out

Car C reacted badly - but it does not take away from the above

C does not have to drive to the limit. It’s a limit not a target.

Many people will drive at 55mph or even a bit less on a motorway for fuel consumption. Lorries are limited to 58mph. Towing a caravan I’m limited to 60mph max and if it’s windy or we’re going downhill I will do nearer 50mph than 60mph.

You’re car A OP?

Ignore above - I meant Car A was definitely in the wrong

and B reacted badly (and as above was probably breaking the law)

This has made me wonder who would be at fault legally if an accident had happened. To my mind, although car A has a responsibility to make sure that they move lanes in a safe manner and A was driving without due care and attention, perhaps even carelessly, I would say that car B was driving recklessly (90mph in a 70mph zone comes in that category for me) , making car B more at fault.

I am not a lawyer/legal expert though so am prepared to be corrected.

B was obviously breaking the law re speed and was an aggressive arse however A was at fault for being unable to assess the situation and the the speed B was approaching, A should have slowed behind C until B had passed.