Unschooling - Do you think it can work?

[abacucat]

Unschooling is the idea that children naturally want to learn and that what children need is the opportunity to pursue their interests.

Well firstly trancepants you can pretty easily have an interest in astronomy by getting a telescope and looking at the stars hmm

You can have an interest in it as a bit of a hobby, sure. But you can't actually understand the subject without being extremely well rounded.

Secondly how can a parent provide the kind of deep knowledge you describe? Seems like most of the time the answer is you tube, or a yearly museum pass. That’s never going to teach the things you describe.
A parent doesn't have to provide all the knowledge, they just have to provide access and ideally be willing to get stuck in with as much of that learning process as possible. I did say in my first post that a parent has to be very learned in order to unschool successfully. You don't need to understand every facet of a field like astronomy but you do need to have a knowledge and appreciation of what is involved. And I honestly think that all of that knowledge and the chance to get stuck in has to really, really excite you.

I love history, I'm a total and utter nerd for it. My son loves science and has been quite adept at his understanding of some reasonably complicated concepts since he was a toddler. Marrying the two has been amazing for both of us. This summer we created a gallium and aluminium compound and used it to release the hydrogen from water. Our ultimate goal was to collect the hydrogen in a ballon and compare it to a helium balloon. And possibly test their flammability in a (very) rudimentary recreation of the Hindenberg disaster. (We failed to successfully collect enough hydrogen but that's half the fun.) All of this was my son's idea, he's 5.

I will concede that when we were studying gallium (his favourite element) and I realised we could potentially collect hydrogen, I taught him about the Hindenberg hoping he'd have the idea to use the hydrogen in that way. (We were learning about the early 20th century with an emphasis on both Nazis and the Titanic at roughly the same time, so it was a natural introduction.) And he did and it was super. We might not have gotten to play with a hydrogen balloon but I did get to watch as he connected some pretty important dots between chemistry and history and make those conclusions.

It was awesome and while he does go to school (it's a completely play based forest school) because he really does yearn for near daily contact with a group of similar aged children. There is absolutely no way on earth he would have anything close to that kind of learning opportunity in any school. Certainly not at primary level, very unlikely in secondary.

Equals means where there are not differential power relationships. It is not about perception, but about fact. An adult and older kid will not treat a younger child the same as another younger child.
I am not sure why some can not see that this is very different?

It is not about perception, but about fact.

Children en mass don't treat each other as equals. They can be properly vile to each other. The smarter kids look down on those who don't understand concepts they consider basic. Overweight kids, red haired kids, short kids, tall kids, big eared kids, the kid who farted aloud that one time, the kid who cried in class, etc can all be treated like absolute shit on the shoes of the others. Some children have a certain quality about them that signals them as a potential victim to others. Children going through stress or uncertainty will often find that they bully or are bullied in ways that does not happen anything like as frequently in adulthood. And when it does happen in adulthood it is often due to behaviours learned as a child.

I honestly do think that for most children, there is a time and place where they do respond well to being a group of similar aged peers. But ideally it will be a small group and well managed by adults. Small groups of mixed aged children are more often less in need of that adult interference and offer more, but maybe different, benefits.

Children are not adults. It is irrelevant that adults socialise with all ages. Children have different needs.

No, children are not adults. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with a child learning to socialise with adults and children of other ages as well as children of their own age. I'm not sure why you are having difficulty with this concept. It's not "either/or." It's "in addition to."

I am assuming that the socialisation many severely disabled kids may get in mainstream schools would not be great for developing social skills.

Well, see there's where you've gone so incredibly wrong. You are assuming and making a blanket statement and thereby "othering" children with disabilities, rather than looking at them as individuals with varying needs and abilities. Again, think about that.

Equals means where there are not differential power relationships. It is not about perception, but about fact. An adult and older kid will not treat a younger child the same as another younger child.

Even relationships with "peers" having variances in power. Cliques, disabilities, perceived social class differences, gender, race, religion, background. As children age, these things seep into their socialisation.

Again, I don't understand why you are having difficulty understanding that most home educated children do generally socialise with some children their own age. The difference is that it's not exclusively with children their own age, so they are also exposed to children in other age groups as well as adults.

older children and adults are not equals

They are when the constraints of school aren't there. In my dd case though they are equal at school.
They understand that you don't need to learn with people born in the same year as you, and in fact, sometimes, this method can hold you back. mine works with 6th formers for some subjects, for others she sees a teacher 1 to 1 because several years in front, or because a couple of years behind.
Only a couple of subjects she studies with a year group.

Of course many severely disabled children do need to socialise with other kids. But I think we might have a different definition of severely disabled. I have worked with severely disabled children who can not talk, may know a few macaton signs, etc. These children are unlikely to ever live independently. They have different needs.

And no, I do not mean status. Can you really not see that an adult will react to a child who is being a pain totally different to kids their own age?

No, children are not adults. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with a child learning to socialise with adults and children of other ages as well as children of their own age. I'm not sure why you are having difficulty with this concept. It's not "either/or." It's "in addition to."
Why make up that I argued something I didn't?

But you keep going on about HE children not socialising with children their age, which is generally not true. Most children who HE DO socialise with children their age, IN ADDITION TO socialising with children of other ages and adults. So why are you saying that children that HE are not getting that "peer" socialisation, when they are? Just because it's not in the same manner that you deem appropriate doesn't actually make it inappropriate... or lesser. IMO, because it looks different to you, you think it's not as good.

Of course many severely disabled children do need to socialise with other kids. But I think we might have a different definition of severely disabled. I have worked with severely disabled children who can not talk, may know a few macaton signs, etc. These children are unlikely to ever live independently. They have different needs.

Good God, just stop digging the hole, yeah?

I said that some HE undervalue socialisation for their kids with other kids their own age.

And you obviously don't understand why such severely disabled kids need to socialise with kids who are kind. Age is far less important.

Yes, it can work, but like all things, context matters.

The child, the parents, the availability of resources.

I've seen children do beautifully, and I've watched a few train wrecks. The train wrecks are usually the bigger philosophical zealots.

It's very hard to define, anyway. People have massive arguments about whether leaving a copy of an interesting magazine lying around is strewing the child's path with treasure or a deeply manipulative and authoritarian act. Top tip: attend home ed groups with headphones/podcast.

The other day a mum identifying as a radical unschooler asked if I had sought my child's permission before signing them up for a workshop.

I hadn't by the way.

I found it interesting that her assumption was that I am not fully aware of the kind of workshop my child would like. My child was thrilled as it happens and lucky I didn't ask as the places went quickly.

Yawn.

You are the one that said the HE kids in your group are kind.
The kids I was working with had very different socialisation needs. We were teaching them things like, don't hug strangers, don't bite, don't masturbate in public. They hadn't developed to being able to play with other kids yet, they played alongside them.

And of course all kids need to learn these lessons, but it was young teenagers I was working with. Most kids learn these lessons in pre school.

I’m not a homeschooler. But yes, I think it works. BUT a) you can’t judge it until adulthood. You could have an illiterate 7 year old who becomes a highly motivated writer at 15. B) only if they are exposed to a rich environment

zzzz You said that they were kinder in your HE group. I do not know your HE group so was taking your word for it.

I did not say that HE leads to social delay.
I said that some HE parents undervalue socialisation with kids of the same age.

Yes if they don't mix with kids of their own age I think it is far harder for some social skills to develop.

Maybe. Provided that you actually provide the opportunities. Sone times this means forcing them to try things properly before giving up. So basically like normal schooling.

What skills OP?

I'm trying to remember how many kids my dd socialised with of the same age when H.ed
I think there was a good mix, tbh. Although she has always got on well with older people and can communicate on the same level as adults too.
Tbh though not many of her peers at school are the same age, it doesn't really make any difference, I think it's the personality and development of the child that matters, not socialising with their own age group.