To think the army shouldn't be allowed to 'avertise' in schools?

[TheDevilWearsPrimark]

I was speaking to my aunt over the weekend she told me she was horrified to hear there had been an assembly run by the T.A at her local school.

Her 15 year old son was apparantly very excited about all they had said, and has apllied for his local cadets group.

I just can't help think that this smacks of desperation on the armies part to recruit children who otherwise feel they have little options, or simply don't really know what they want.

Those television adverts that make it all seem like a fun computer game are another step too far.

As far as I can see, your argument is not based on the army and your thoughts of the army but on the government and the war in Iraq. Therefore, your argument is not valid. It wasn?t the army that decided to go into Iraq, it was the government, the two are not the same or did you not know that?

If you think that children should not go into the army because they might die, well maybe we should rule out a few more things then shall we?

Best not become a lorry driver because? you might die on the road. in fact best not get a driver?s licence because? yep you?ve guessed it, you might die. Or worse, you might break the speed limit, ad that?s illegal, similar to the illegal war? best not join the fire service, the police, the ambulance service because ? you might die. Not a lot left is there?

Personally I think the army is not as bad as we make out. I grew up in a country where ever boy has to complete two years of national service, and it changes each and every one of them and teaches them a bit of discipline. Something that would not go amiss in this country IMO.

I have a cousin who went to jail for gbh when he was just 17. he?d done everything under the sun. drugs, fighting in pubs, and then he hit some kid and went down. When he came out he joined the army. It?s turned his life around completely. He?s 29 now and has been all over. I don?t know what he does or where he?s been but I do know that it?s changed his life for the better.

As I understand it, Britain is in an awkward position with "child soldiers".

This is defined as under 18, and the idea is to stop thugs rounding up kids at gunpoint and brutalising them into joining some war where the odds are they they will be killed or maimed.
A wholly bad thing that should be stopped, though of course to do this you probably need to use force...
Britain allows in people before 18, and usually they are in non-combat roles, indeed the vast majority of people in the armed forces aren't actually armed much after basic training.

But occasionally a ship is sent in harms way, which happens to have a very junior sailor on board.
From what I've read they are offered the chance of a free trip home after being dropped at the nearest port.
But they can if they so choose, refuse, and go to war.
These are "child soldiers" under what passes for international law.
To me, it goes to what age you should treat someone as an adult and able to make life or death decisions. A girl at 16 (for instance) is perfectly able to ask for an abortion (or indeed get pregnant) neither of which are risk free options.

Bloody well said, MamaD.

Seems bizarre to me to have only one recruiter come in. Why not just make it careers fair kind of thing where you can get information about all sorts of trades, about what you can do it you don't go to college.

Agree with Custardo. People used to join up because they wanted to fight for their country. What does it say that they feel they now have to tout extreme activities in order to get adrenaline seeking young people to join up? Seems wrong to be directing snazzy advertising about being mates and rock climbing together at young kids at an impressionable time in their life.

Would like to add that I think the Cadets is a very good idea and would like to see stuff like this trawled round schools.

Just wanted to correct comments about the Territorial Army (and the Royal Navy Reserve and the RAF Auxiliary), these are reserve forces and not the same as the CCF. The reserves recruit at the same age as the regular forces but its a career you do alongside your civilian job.

I know from personal experience that there has been (and continues to be) compulsory call out for reservists both for Afganistan and for Iraq. Whilst it used to be the case that one could join the reserves and think "they'll never call me up unless it gets really desperate" it seems that successive governments have recognised that reservists are defence "on the cheap" in that we don't get pensions, we don't get paid when we're not actually training or on duty and up until very recently, we don't get any post-combat support when they send us home. Up until a year ago (when my personal knowledge gets a bit thinner) TA recruits were being compulsorarily called up and sent to Iraq straight out of basic training.

I know this also happened to regular forces too but everyone knows about them and the "there would never be compulsory call up for TA" is simply wrong, now.

I would be extremely unhappy about the cadets going to my children's school and attempting to engage them in any military training. my children do not need the 'discipline' of cadets, they receive discipline from their parent as I deem appropriate. I wouldn't be 'proud' to see any of my children serve their country. I'd be absolutely heartbroken. I'd be happy for them to do community service, but I absolutely oppose military service and would rather my children left the country than join any of the forces.

when they grow up I hope I will have brought them up to not want to join the forces. If they do any of that annoying 'thinking for themselves' thing then thats fine - when they are old enough to make an informed decision and if they take my opinion into account. I do not want my 14 year old brainwashed by HM forces thank you very much. all the advertising shows happy team mates dressing wounds and helping little foreign babies, not people dying horribly and unnecessarily or civilians carrying their dying children onto the streets.

for those of you who oppose military service and would be heartbroken if your child signed up, can I just ask - do you think we shouldn't have an army at all? do you think it is unnecessary? do you think we should not be involved in any peacekeeping or other missions? and what if we were invaded or any of our territories?

haarpsichordcarrier, I'd love to see if you get an answer to that. Other than this. Which isn't really an answer, because I'm not who you're talking to. But still. um...

I am genuinely interested by the way.
I ain't forces material, I don't have the fitness, or the mental strength or the discipline but I am bloody glad some people have and I am bloody grateful to them.
I think being snidey about the forces is tasteless imo. have a pop at the government by all means, but have a look at the newspapers. this is not the time to stand down the army imo.

We forget that a lot of EU countries still have national service.

Indeed they do cammelia. Men who feel they 'got out of' doing national service in cyprus by coming over to the UK or wherever still have to do it if they ever return - even for just a holiday.

They have to do a minimum of 1 month - age is not necessarily a barrier either.

Agree with all haarpsi's points.

Nothing wrong with promotion of careers in school - whatever the profession (well, there might be one or two very old professions that might just be unacceptable )

Those of you who are annoyed at the way the army is advertised, how naïve are you? Of course they have to advertise the good bits, they?re not exactly going to sell it if they say ?you?ll be going to horrible places, you won?t see your family for months and months and there?s quite a good chance you might die?. It?s like any profession, they all have their downsides, nursing, police, law, but people enter these professions for the positives and the negatives are soon made clear to them.

Am also curious to know whether those who wouldn?t want their children joining the army would be happy to get rid of the armed forces altogether or whether they?re just nimbyss, ie it?s ok for someone else?s son to die for my country as long as it isn?t mine?

hc, I'm not against armies or anything but there's obviously a case to be made for being neutral like Switzerland and some would say it's better to be conquered than to fight. If we disbanded our armed forces I doubt the French or Americans would invade. I can't really see Russia doing it because France and Germany would stop them so yes, we probably could manage without any armed forces in the UK but I'm not the best person to argue it as I can see the financial and business advantages of wars, the reasons they can be good politically etc etc

"my children do not need
the 'discipline' of cadets, they receive discipline from their parent as I deem appropriate."

I take it that you're therefore also opposed to your children doing sport? something which also contains an element of discipline, perhaps you are opposed to them being disciplined in school also? when one talks of discipline, it is not that they bring up your children, just that it is a disciplined environment. not the same.

yes, or singing in a choir
or playing in an orchestra
or going to work
obviously they all involve discipline

I'm having enough moral dilemmas about my 13 year old being in the navy section of the CCF at school next year as it is. Ethically, I have to say I would have preferred he do Duke of Edinburgh instead, but I don't feel it is really my decision. This is something he has to choose for himself. I do not think that the forces should be able to advertise in schools, no, but my choice to send my son to a school where there are combined forces does I suppose force me to accept their presence in the school. I would be mightily peed off to hear that my local state school was getting visitations like that without the parents being warned.

Of course it?s not ok for someone elses son to die ? however, they are not my responsibility. My children are my responsibility ? and are disciplined how I see fit. The discipline of choir or sports teams (hardly a comparison to being in the army, is it..) is the same sort of discipline one acquires from attending school on a daily basis, teamwork is learned by participating in lessons. The discipline that I am talking about is the ability to accept orders without question ? and that it not what I want for my children. I also (now) have a sneaking suspicion that people are talking about ?discipline? with regards to children that hang around streets terrorising old ladies and shooting cats with air rifles. Want them to join a choir? Oh! Much better idea, give them a gun!

No one has mentioned bullying, sexism, racism or homophobia in the armed forces. Are we conveniently sweeping that under the carpet?

I?d be a lot prouder of my child going to help out in areas of natural disaster as part of the peace corp than as part of HM armed forces. There are alternatives to community service that don?t involve being a member of the military.

Duchesse, you have seen the badge one gets for passing the Duke of Edinburgh Award ?
It's two crossed swords, and when you add in that Prince Philip served bravely in WWII, killing people, I don't think you can get away from the military that easily.

Most sports have martial roots, football was basically a scrap with the ball as an excuse.

You don't need a cadet force to help your kid learn discipline, but that misses the point big time.
Each kid is different, and schools, even the good ones are mostly "one size fits all", with the occasional not to individuality.
Some kids just don't click with school discipline, or a given teacher, or there is some peer pressure.
Organised music may be right for that child instead, it depends.
What it is not is team sport. Or at least not 1/10th as often as it is used, but it can be an option. Cadet forces are simply increasing the set of choices.
I would be surprised if any school these days had the CCF as compulsory.

CCF can give children great opportunities to do 'risky' stuff that schools might not be prepared to do with them e.g. camping, orienteering, etc. The RAF section at our local independent school go flying regularly at a local airbase.

My concern however is that the forces don't seem to have a lot of input to the cadet force itself. The units appear to be run by members of staff who have an interest and may not have a great deal of training or experience e.g. a week's basic army training and a weapons training course whereas I thought it would be run by 'real' soldiers/sailors, etc.

The cadet forces used to be run by people who had served, but as the number of these has declined to a small fraction of what it once was, "real" officers are very hard to find.

If you restrict yourself to the staff at a school, the% who have the inclination let alone the ability means you are going to struggle.

One thing I did pick up in my time was a bit of social friction with the CCF types and the squaddies.

persephone: "No one has mentioned bullying, sexism, racism or homophobia in the armed forces. Are we conveniently sweeping that under the carpet?"

unfortunatly this happens everywhere doesnt it school, work, in the home you cant place that at the doors of our forces

I am saddened at some of the responses on here i do not agree with the war in Iraq for many different reasons but I am proud of the people that have gone on orders to do there best for us
I am proud of the peace keeping missions and the humanitarian aid they give, the specialities they bring to situtions where there is panic/disasters
I am proud of my family and others that lost there lives in ww1 & ww2 so we could live better lives
I wear my poppy with pride every year in memory of all the brave men and women who are in the armed forces and there families who are supporting them to be there

I think that people can do a lot worse than joing the Army! Its something to be proud of!
It teaches good disciplin and independance. When someone comes out of the army the walk away with excellent life skills.
Its a good, hard working, honest wage!

persephone: "No one has mentioned bullying, sexism, racism or homophobia in the armed forces. Are we conveniently sweeping that under the carpet?"
better hope your children don't go into the City then