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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Is food poverty real?

999 replies

Leapfrog44 · 18/09/2018 20:00

Provocative title, sorry I know food poverty is real. I'm just not convinced about the extent of it.

I've cooked half a packet of dried chickpeas 50p which we eat fried with garlic, salt and olive oil. They're also delicious with pasta or with potatoes as a curry. Braised Puy lentils (60p) cooked with onions, celery and the bendy carrots left in the fridge.

And to really push the boat out an aubergine stew with onions and tomatoes. The 3 big aubergines cost £1.50. Tomatoes and parsley came from the garden.

I spent an hour cooking today including making a loaf of bread. With some rice or couscous, and some salad, what I've made will feed us for 4 nights.

We have apples too, foraged at the weekend. The windfall ones I cut the bad off and stewed them, the rest are good for eating. There are also elderberries, plums and a few late blackberries dotted around the margins of the city for anyone who can be bothered to go out and pick them.

I know not everyone has a garden but a very small space can be used to grow quite a lot. In pots I grew enough tomatoes, green beans and lettuce to feed us all summer. If I was less lazy or more skint, I'd also seed save, to ensure I can grow them for free next year. Many allotment holders would totally give up some produce in exchange for labour too.

So I guess I'm wondering if the increasing number of people who are in financial dire staits and find themselves needing to use food banks are in fact suffering from a lack of food education as much as lack of money? Our grandparents in the same situation would have cultivated every bit of earth with home grown vegetables and I'm sure would have been more resourceful and more capable of making do on very little.

Obviously there are very vulnerable people without the means to cook or to grow but surely not everyone experiencing 'food poverty' is in this category? I often wonder why at food banks they don't ask if recipients have access to a bit of ground (or a few pots) and give them seeds? Pulses and in season veggies are incredibly cheap and with a few quid you can feed your family really well if you know how to cook them. It's far better to cook a simple vegetable curry or dhal and eat it all week than have to exist on the pot noodles, tinned sludge, sugary cereals and biscuits that they're giving out.

Times are going to get MUCH tougher. Climate change and environmental destruction will soon jeopardise our food security and food banks will not be able to help everyone.

So AIBU? As a society are we actually getting poorer and hungrier or have we just raised a couple of generations lacking general resourcefulness, cooking skills and horticultural know how? Times are tough for increasing numbers but I can't help feeling that many of these people just don't have a clue how to help themselves.

OP posts:
PhilomenaButterfly · 20/09/2018 20:46

cathf when you first move into a place, you have fuck all. No cooking equipment, no store cupboard. Key meters are extortionate. I've done it.

glintandglide · 20/09/2018 20:46

Cathf- people who live in hostels, studios, bedsits, temporary bed and breakfasts can find themselves without proper cooking facilities.

Bimgy85 · 20/09/2018 21:04

I will say again and again. You cannot live on benefits and not expect to be in poverty...

Wrongwayup · 20/09/2018 21:05

Courtney you are an accountant of 20 years. Why do you need a second job? And who are you taking it from? I am also an accountant. ACA and CTA I also volunteer in a food bank and a homeless shelter. It's all real both my day to day world advising tax planning to reduce inheritance tax and food poverty. I fell into my day job. It pays the bills. But get far more out of my voluntary roles. Such a mind fuck taking part in both worlds. To all struggling I'm sorry.

myrtleWilson · 20/09/2018 21:10

Cathf - I mean this genuinely - I don't know how much you know about UC and benefits so am cantering through the history. Its not meant to be patronising (although I note you assign that view point to others so hey ho)

Iain Duncan Smith (from his days setting up the Centre for Justice think tank) passionately believed that the "old" system was to complex - many many people agreed.

He also believed that 'work should pay' - that the incentive to gain employment, remain in work, proper in work must be greater than the benefits system. Again many many people agreed.

What has happened though is an absolute dogs ear of a new benefit system - you can read various Select Committee and NAO reports on how badly it has been designed and implemented - massively late, not functioning (as an aside I have been in countless meetings when these issues were put to government - not in an attempt to stop the policy but to get them to understand how their approach to implementation was going to have a negative impact).

So now we have a system which has

a) increased levels of sanctions - including 3 strikes and you're out. The problem with such a system is that the application of sanctions must be absolutely applied fairly. It is not, there are multiple examples of sanctions being applied (and not overturned) despite the sanction not being appropriate (for example a client not attending an appointment at DWP because their appendix had burst and they were in emergency surgery).

The sanctions system has been applied in overly stringent manner meaning people are docked benefits unfairly (and there is some evidence that points to DWP staff having targets around sanctions.

  1. the system is not coping. I have multiple case examples of claimants (often vulnerable) who have supplied the right information, to find DWP have lost it, or have that information but have decided it now needs to be completed on a different form but neglected to tell said claimant.

One case study I had for a research project showed a claimant chasing DWP for about 5/6 months before the right information was located and the claim was backdated. That claimant had an advocate, I dread to think what would have happened without that advocate.

  1. UC was meant to mimic being in work, so is paid four weeks in arrears - direct to the claimant. However it also includes what was a HB payment which in the past could have been paid (with claimants permission) direct to the landlord.

Now with UC the claimant is in breach of tenancy agreement if they don't pay their rent in advance but won't receive the money until at least 4 weeks later. So they need a 4 week head start on their rent - where does that come from?

Previously most landlords would have been happy to receive the HB in arrears direct from the council as they could see the claim was in progress - with UC they can't do this. Social landlords and tenant groups have argued long and hard that if a tenant is happy for the money to go direct DWP should pay direct but DWP have said no - there are limited specific times when direct payment would be made.

Then relatively recently (and not in the first design of UC) the government introduced a 6 week waiting period for UC. After a threatened revolt by Tory MPs this was reduced down to 5 weeks.

The delay was because the system is so inept that the government argue it can't be done quicker. Yes advance claims can be made but again originally these were to paid off within six months and it was the threatened revolt of Tory MPs that this was extended.

There have always been people without cookers, cooking equipment but a lot of these were supported via crisis grants that were centrally administered but the Welfare Reform Act changed eligibility and decentralised crisis loans/grants to LA's.

Hurrah you may say - LA's can spend based on local need. Well yes and no, in theory yes but in reality the money decentralised was not ring fenced so a council facing severe funding cuts (as most were - really massive cuts) they could utilise anything that wasn't ring fenced to fill gaps elsewhere in services - social care for example.

Plus the money decentralised was based on the annual spend before welfare reform - so didn't take into account the likely need for increased crisis spending.

Sorry - that all sounds like a potted history of the impact of the Welfare Reform Act (I've worked in this field!)

And we are left with a situation in which has tried to create a "better' welfare system (if you agree with IDS at the starting point) but has managed to make a pigs ear of it, reducing welfare spending but in a punitive manner, lack of effective project management of roll out, crisis situations not having the resources they need, sanctions being applied in frankly eyebrow raising ways etc etc and the result is what some on this thread have tried to explain.

Thats not to say that poverty (food, fuel or otherwise) has solely been caused by the WR Act but it hasn't exactly helped.

I'll hit post now and realise I'll have cross posted with a gazillion others..

Courtney555 · 20/09/2018 21:12

I think I stated pretty clearly why I have a second job. Who am I taking it from? Wow, what a sorry attitude. Actually I'm also a dancer, and we're always looking for people to train and join us. Feel free!

Frequency · 20/09/2018 21:28

Cathf, things break, people leave relationships with nothing or get evicted and can't afford to store their things/have no room in the temp B&B to bring it with them, are broken into etc.

Can really not see a feasible reason why people might not have cookery equipment?

When my Ex-H threw me out onto the streets he didn't turn around and say, Oh, just wait there a second while I pack your herbs and spices and the food processor. I left with nothing, not one single pan.

As he had a good job, I worked 12 hours a week for 'pin money'. We didn't need me to work. I was able to bump that up to 24 hours a week but even then rebuying all that stuff on NMW, with rent to pay, moving fees to pay, kids to re-kit out because he would literally let me take nothing was not easy. Believe it or not blenders, spices, crock pots, casserole dishes etc came way down my list. I considered them luxury items.

glintandglide · 20/09/2018 21:31

Bit strange though Courtney. I’m
An accountant and am too exhausted by the end of the day and desperate to see my family to go off to another job. Don’t need to either as I’m well paid

But mind you I don’t understand how your jobs puts you in touch with the benefits system as you claimed earlier. Mine hasn’t in 20 years. Benefits claimants don’t tend to need to pay someone to do their accounts Hmm

Wrongwayup · 20/09/2018 21:37

Courtney accountants are fairly top of the pile pay wise. So why do you need a second job? Me 2 left feet sadly.

Graphista · 20/09/2018 21:38

Myrtle - excellent post. The only thing I would add is that I don't believe for one second IDS thought this would improve things for the poor. I genuinely believe he thinks all but the most disabled/sick on benefits are 'lazy scroungers' who simply needed a stick rather than carrot approach to 'encourage' them into work. Even though his own staff were telling him there weren't enough jobs and that what jobs there are aren't paying enough to live on.

A man with a distinctly questionable background who's repeatedly lied about his education and qualifications, but has at least given glimpses of how he honestly feels about the poor, by blatantly laughing when more punitive measures are passed in parliament.

Mcvey isn't much better, outright stating that food banks are 'right' and that people on benefits (for whatever reason) should try harder to find work.

Courtney555 · 20/09/2018 21:40

A bit strange that I've got a strong work ethic and build and build while I can because you don't know what tomorrow brings? Dear me.

That's really sad that even when you explain you have a responsible attitude and prepare for your future that people view that as strange.

Of course I deal with benefits. Loads of self employed clients want to know the implications on their tax credits if they switch from sole trader to Ltd for example. How greatly will their housing and council tax benefit be affected if they make certain adjustments.

Bluelady · 20/09/2018 21:40

Didn't Rees-Mogg also say something equally crass about food banks?

myrtleWilson · 20/09/2018 21:44

thanks Graphista, I think with IDS he probably started out with a view that the system (as was) wasn't helping the poor - the CSJ did a lot of work about the pathways in/out of poverty. But I think he probably then didn't taken on board the right advice and is arrogant enough to think that his idea was right, was perfect, needed no changes, no tweaks, just go.... and look how that ended up. In some ways I think McVey is worse as I think she doesn't actually care one jot and is just pleased to be back in parliament, back in government and would have taken any job going, I think IDS at some level cares but hasn't got the wherewithal to translate care into appropriate policy...

Courtney555 · 20/09/2018 21:49

I love this "a second job?!“ when you're not living on bread and cheese?

If something happens to me, I've worked my ass off to ensure DS and I are more than covered.

And rather than that level of effort and planning, because we never know what's around the corner being the norm, it's seen as "strange", even questioned why you would do it, and job stealing Grin

I'm genuine emergency and sudden change of scenarios, I truly sympathise about trying to cope with conditions that should not be happening.

But the defiance and excuses at posters suggesting anyone could benefit from putting in a bit of hard work, from some on here, seriously, Jesus wept.

Bluelady · 20/09/2018 21:55

Courtney, I'm not going to knock your efforts to provide financial security. I completely understand why you do it.

But - and it's a big but - surely to God, having read what happens to people who commit benefit fraud, you can't condemn people who are already living hand to mouth for not jeopardising their only source of income? Their motivation is the same as yours.

glintandglide · 20/09/2018 21:56

Who looks after your son when you do your second job though?

SunnySkiesSleepsintheMorning · 20/09/2018 21:58

Disclaimer: I have never lived in poverty or even been in really dire straits.

I work with people with a multitude of needs, many of them have learning disabilities. Without a doubt, the ones who struggle most in terms of sitting with no heating in November and very limited food are almost all male and single with mild learning disabilities. I am aware this is anecdotal. I have worked with many others who are in food poverty but there is a pattern in terms of those who have conditions disabling enough that finding work is very, very difficult but it’s not cut and dried in that they absolutely cannot work.

The suggestions here made me smile. While I can support these people to develop skills in cooking and taking care of themselves, sadly, they may never learn to develop skills in baking to enable them a salary. They might learn but not in enough time to pull them out of poverty.

Can you imagine being terrified because you were sanctioned for not attending your appointment at the job centre? You tried to phone but no reply and no message facility. You had a hospital appointment and went to that as the times clashed. You have a mild learning disability and no support, navigating the world is really, really hard for you and now you have no money.

I’m sure the likes of Bingy and Courtney will say they don’t mean people who are disabled but there are many people who are on the border and they fall through the cracks.

Courtney555 · 20/09/2018 22:00

A baby sitter?!

Hence I know how in demand they are, and what they get paid.

This has been discussed prior on this thread.

Graphista · 20/09/2018 22:06

"Didn't Rees-Mogg also say something equally crass about food banks?" He said people were only using them cos they knew they existed!

As for csj - compassionate conservatism? There's an oxymoron if ever I heard one! Orwellian doublespeak becomes increasing reality in uk politics!

"I think McVey is worse as I think she doesn't actually care one jot and is just pleased to be back in parliament, back in government and would have taken any job going" you could well be right there.

But I don't think ids cares, I think he sees the poor as a problem to be solved, as not contributing enough to society to be worthy of care.

myrtleWilson · 20/09/2018 22:15

oh I'm not intending to be IDS's defender in chief! And I agree with your comments about "problem to solve" I think sometimes politicians encounter things outside their norm and it resonates (for whatever reason) - how they try to respond can perhaps demonstrate the extent to which they really understand issues - so for example Michael Heseltine and understanding need for regeneration in Liverpool - could be seen as very different impact/response.

glintandglide · 20/09/2018 22:16

But if I go off and do an evening job in a bar or supermarket (as you suggest)
I’m not going to be able to afford a baby sitter am I?

Merename · 20/09/2018 22:17

I don’t have time to rtft but read several pages - did the op ever come back to respond?

Courtney555 · 20/09/2018 22:19

I suggested people tried babysitting.

Frequency · 20/09/2018 22:23

But if I go off and do an evening job in a bar or supermarket (as you suggest)
I’m not going to be able to afford a baby sitter am I?

Not if you pay them the going rate proposed on here (in my town babysitters are 14-16 year olds and they get a tenner and a frozen pizza).

Also working nights and days concurrently is soul destroying and not something many people could maintain long term.

Graphista · 20/09/2018 22:29

Fair enough myrtle, John bishop (staunch socialist I think he'd say) was on last leg recently, weirdly he ended up doing shots with David Cameron at some function. He was saying it occurred to him that there's an element of true hardship is just genuinely so far removed from people like Cameron's experience that they CAN'T get it! They simply don't understand! And because they don't understand so they come up with daft ideas that don't work in the real world.

Iirc this was the same week another Tory MP (can't remember who) when poised the conundrum of where people are supposed to store their belongings if during a house sale/move the chain gets broken mid move, replied something like 'well they'd just put it in their other house of course' 🙄🙄🙄