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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To be a little disappointed that Jesus is being taught as fact in Y1?

366 replies

PoxAlert · 18/09/2018 12:36

We're atheists, so therefore didn't consider any faith schools for our DD.

We want her to learn about all cultures and religions and be tolerant of them all. We have friends of many faiths and beliefs and just want to be kind and happy.

Of course I expect (and welcome) Christianity to be taught in school, but we just got a copy of this term's curriculum (DD just started Y1) and for a non-faith school it seems a bit much.

Or am I being unrealistic and the school and church will always be linked?

Some of the RE points are:

"To learn who Jesus was" "who were his friends" "what did he do?"

I guess I was expecting a "what do Christians believe?" "why do they celebrate Christmas" etc etc than what seems to be a fact based history lesson....

Either way I'm not going to kick up a fuss with school, it's not a big deal really, she's free to make her own decisions in life. Just surprised me a little.

OP posts:
Padparadscha · 18/09/2018 14:10

Santa is taught as fact to children much younger. I'm not sure I've heard a single complaint about that.

Have you not been on MN that long? Give it a month or so, you’ll see plenty of people who think pretending Santa is real is an awful lie to tell children.

Of course St Nicholas was a real person but he isn't the same as this Santa guy.

Much like historical Jesus and biblical Jesus it seems.

CardinalSin · 18/09/2018 14:27

Yes, there almost certainly was a Jewish rabbi called Jesus who built up a following of Jews and was crucified in 30 or 33AD. Those are plausible 'facts'.

Even here you used the word "almost". There is actually no almost about it. It is certainly possible that such a person existed, but as the only source we have for this is the Bible, it is certainly not in the category of "fact".

"He founded the Christian church" - again, you may believe this, but even people who think that there may have been a Jesus preaching at this time actually think that Paul founded the church...

Kool4katz · 18/09/2018 14:34

OP, I think if you're that worried, then home educate your kids. Seriously!

My DS goes to a Catholic primary in Ireland where they're very keen on stories about Jesus.
I'm an atheist and my DH is a Buddhist but we're teaching him about other religions with suitable books from the library. The majority of parents at the school are baptised Catholic, go to Mass, celebrate various Christian events but aren't really strong believers and happily voted to repeal the 8th and for gay marriage so I don't worry at all about potential indoctrination as it's clearly not corrupted the parents too badly. Also, I know DS is very interested in learning about other cultures and belief systems.

PermanentlyFrizzyHairBall · 18/09/2018 14:40

Surely the key question is is why non-christians celebrate christmas? Why do athiest/secularists spend hundreds of pounds they cant afford on tat their children will discard in a few days. If you are not a christian dont celebrate. I know that the date was chosen to dislodge pagan festivals but few people are pagans.

Why shouldn't non christians celebrate a festival that was once largely christian? Historically the country was almost universally christian so naturally many of our traditions have some historic basis in the christian faith just as many christian festivals have a historic basis in the pagan faith.

I don't spend money I can't afford and I don't buy junk that will be immediately thrown away. I do have a lovely time with friends and family and enjoy my christmas dinner and present giving though!

Padparadscha · 18/09/2018 14:41

OP, I think if you're that worried, then home educate your kids. Seriously!

Why on earth should the op home educate her child just because she doesn’t want religious stories taught as fact to her children? It shouldn’t be an issue for her.

The Christians you know may be very ‘liberal’ and ‘modern’, but I doubt very much they’d appreciate an atheist coming into their places of worship every week, and using some of the religious time to push their views of there being no god. It would be pretty inappropriate.

MauisLeftNipple · 18/09/2018 14:41

I'm not from this country. I was very taken aback to discover that the head teacher said a prayer at the start of school assemblies at my child's state school.

I am also an atheist. I am ok with my child being taught about all religions, but am not keen on beliefs being presented as facts.

PermanentlyFrizzyHairBall · 18/09/2018 14:42

Honestly OP doesn't sound like she is that worried about it just surprised and not particularly pleased. She specifically said she wasn't going to kick up a fuss she's just surprised it's happening in a non faith school.

PoxAlert · 18/09/2018 14:45

@PermanentlyFrizzyHairBall

Thanks for reading my post the way I intended it!!

I'm chill. Just was a little Hmm at the wording. I think I may have misunderstood though. X

OP posts:
MissConductUS · 18/09/2018 14:56

There is actually no almost about it. It is certainly possible that such a person existed, but as the only source we have for this is the Bible

The Bible and the writings of the Roman Senator Tacitus and the Jewish historian Josephus. So there is contemporaneous documentation for the historicity of Jesus, you're just unaware of it.

Historical Jesus

BartholinsSister · 18/09/2018 15:13

It's still pretty flakey evidence, neither first hand accounts.
There's equal 'evidence' Jesus slayed a dragon.

CardinalSin · 18/09/2018 15:15

Oh dear.

MissConductUS Care to tell me when Tacitus lived?

Likewise Josephus - although as his paragraph on Jesus is a flgrant forgery you shouldn't really be bringing it up anyway!

MissConductUS · 18/09/2018 15:37

Re Josephus:

Historicity of Jesus

In Books 18 and 20 of Antiquities of the Jews, written around AD 93 to 94, Jewish historian Josephus twice refers to the biblical Jesus. The general scholarly view holds that the longer passage, known as the Testimonium Flavianum, most likely consists of an authentic nucleus that was subjected to later Christian interpolation or forgery.[39][40] On the other hand, Louis H. Feldman states that "few have doubted the genuineness" of the reference found in Antiquities 20, 9, 1 to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James".[41][42][43][44]

Re Tacticus:

Tacticus

As a young man, Tacitus studied rhetoric in Rome to prepare for a career in law and politics; like Pliny, he may have studied under Quintilian[15] (c. 35 AD – c. 100). In 77 or 78, he married Julia Agricola, daughter of the famous general Agricola.[16] Little is known of their domestic life, save that Tacitus loved hunting and the outdoors.[17] He started his career (probably the latus clavus, mark of the senator)[18] under Vespasian[19] (reigned 69–79), but entered political life as a quaestor in 81 or 82 under Titus.[20] He advanced steadily through the cursus honorum, becoming praetor in 88 and a quindecimvir, a member of the priestly college in charge of the Sibylline Books and the Secular games.[21] He gained acclaim as a lawyer and as an orator; his skill in public speaking ironically counterpoints his cognomen Tacitus ("silent"). He served in the provinces from c. 89 to c. 93, either in command of a legion or in a civilian post.

CardinalSin · 18/09/2018 15:45

So neither born when the Jesus character was supposed to be alive.

The TF is patent dross. There is even a trail leading to the forger (who was a self confessed forger of Christian history!).

The second passage in Josephus is meaningless until you realise it refers to Jesus son of Damneus - to misquote Obi-Wan, "This is not the Jesus you're looking for"...

MissConductUS · 18/09/2018 16:13

Jesus son of Damneus

The works of Josephus refer to at least twenty different people with the name Jesus, and in chapter 9 of Book 20, Jesus the son of Damneus is thought by many to be distinct from the reference to "Jesus called Christ", who is mentioned along with the identification of James.[6] John Painter states that phrase "who was called Christ" is used by Josephus in this passage "by way of distinguishing him from others of the same name such as the high priest Jesus son of Damneus, or Jesus son of Gamaliel" both having been mentioned by Josephus in this context.[7]

Sources for the historicity of Jesus

Modern scholarship has almost universally acknowledged the authenticity of the reference in Book 20, Chapter 9, 1 of the Antiquities to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James",[21] and considers it as having the highest level of authenticity among the references of Josephus to Christianity.[12][13][22][23][24][25]

To be fair, some historians have questioned the historicity of Jesus, but they are a distinct minority:

Historicity of Jesus

Virtually all New Testament scholars and Near East historians, applying the standard criteria of historical investigation, find that the historicity of Jesus is effectively certain[3][4][5][6][nb 1][nb 2][nb 3][nb 4][nb 5] although they differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the details of his life that have been described in the gospels.[nb 6][13][nb 7][15]:168–173 While scholars have criticized Jesus scholarship for religious bias and lack of methodological soundness,[nb 8] with very few exceptions such critics generally do support the historicity of Jesus and reject the Christ myth theory that Jesus never existed.[17][nb 9][19][20][21]

This may help clarify why, on balance, his historical existence isn't widely questioned.

What is the historical evidence that Jesus lived and died

How confident can we be that Jesus Christ actually lived?

The historical evidence for Jesus of Nazareth is both long-established and widespread. Within a few decades of his supposed lifetime, he is mentioned by Jewish and Roman historians, as well as by dozens of Christian writings. Compare that with, for example, King Arthur, who supposedly lived around AD500. The major historical source for events of that time does not even mention Arthur, and he is first referred to 300 or 400 years after he is supposed to have lived. The evidence for Jesus is not limited to later folklore, as are accounts of Arthur.

What do Christian writings tell us?

The value of this evidence is that it is both early and detailed. The first Christian writings to talk about Jesus are the epistles of St Paul, and scholars agree that the earliest of these letters were written within 25 years of Jesus’s death at the very latest, while the detailed biographical accounts of Jesus in the New Testament gospels date from around 40 years after he died. These all appeared within the lifetimes of numerous eyewitnesses, and provide descriptions that comport with the culture and geography of first-century Palestine. It is also difficult to imagine why Christian writers would invent such a thoroughly Jewish saviour figure in a time and place – under the aegis of the Roman empire – where there was strong suspicion of Judaism.

What did non-Christian authors say about Jesus?

As far as we know, the first author outside the church to mention Jesus is the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, who wrote a history of Judaism around AD93. He has two references to Jesus. One of these is controversial because it is thought to be corrupted by Christian scribes (probably turning Josephus’s negative account into a more positive one), but the other is not suspicious – a reference to James, the brother of “Jesus, the so-called Christ”.

About 20 years after Josephus we have the Roman politicians Pliny and Tacitus, who held some of the highest offices of state at the beginning of the second century AD. From Tacitus we learn that Jesus was executed while Pontius Pilate was the Roman prefect in charge of Judaea (AD26-36) and Tiberius was emperor (AD14-37) – reports that fit with the timeframe of the gospels. Pliny contributes the information that, where he was governor in northern Turkey, Christians worshipped Christ as a god. Neither of them liked Christians – Pliny writes of their “pig-headed obstinacy” and Tacitus calls their religion a destructive superstition.

Did ancient writers discuss the existence of Jesus?

Strikingly, there was never any debate in the ancient world about whether Jesus of Nazareth was a historical figure. In the earliest literature of the Jewish Rabbis, Jesus was denounced as the illegitimate child of Mary and a sorcerer. Among pagans, the satirist Lucian and philosopher Celsus dismissed Jesus as a scoundrel, but we know of no one in the ancient world who questioned whether Jesus lived.

HTH. Smile

Padparadscha · 18/09/2018 16:26

HTH

Not to me it didn’t. Seems like lazy googling of Christian propaganda to me. Where’s some actual academic papers of a non-biased source?

noego · 18/09/2018 16:33

I find it disgusting that children are being exposed to Christian philosophy at this age.
My DGS came home last year (year 3) to pronounce that God is a man in the sky and watches everything. FFS
Programming and conditioning of children in any way should not be on any curriculum. Just teach the to read and write and interact with their peers.

1981fishgut · 18/09/2018 16:34

Be mor concerned they are teaching children you can change sex

Ninoo25 · 18/09/2018 16:35

OP YANBU I have the same issue with my childrens’ school and it pisses me right off. It is a state school with no religious affiliations, but they pray in assembly and teach Christianity as fact (I know Jesus was an actual historical figure, but that does not make the rest of it fact!) So far they have taught no other religion than Christianity, but I believe they do this further on in school. They only celebrate Christmas and Diwali. No mention of Hanukkah or Eid or anything like that, despite them being part of 2 of the other ‘big’ religions. It drives me mad, where I live there are only 2 primary schools that are not faith schools and this is one of them.

TheFluffyHippo · 18/09/2018 16:37

OP, the learning objectives are likely to be quite vague. They need to be quite short and snappy so won’t necessarily include nuance when written down in the scheme of work. It’s very likely that when the information is presented to the children, it will be explained clearly in a “Christians believe...” sort of fashion.

Speak to the teacher about it and ask them how they’ll approach it. If you’re not happy, you can withdraw your child from RE lessons. I’m not personally a fan of that approach but it’s something you might want to consider if you’re really unhappy.

I assume you’re also happy to discuss religion with your DD out of school so that will help a lot too.

Ninoo25 · 18/09/2018 16:38

Oh and I don’t know of any Hindu families in the school, but plenty of kids from Jewish and Muslim backgrounds.

ChikiTIKI · 18/09/2018 16:39

@CardinalSin, Jesus is written about in the Bible, in the Koran and also by ancient historians from the time who were not religious. His existence is not in question.

I haven't read it but I've heard great things about a book called A Case For Christ. It's been made in to a film too. It's about someone who is not a Christian who sets out to examine the evidence and make their own decision about Jesus. It might be worth a read if you want to look more in to research about Jesus?

RiverTam · 18/09/2018 16:40

I’m a bit baffled by some schools here - in Year 3 DD spent half a term on each of the major religions - so Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and Sikhism. Some of these posts seem to be suggesting that Christianity is all that’s taught? I don’t think that’s correct.

FWIW she didn’t convert to any of them and I think all of them were presented as beliefs.

Basecamp65 · 18/09/2018 16:43

When my children went to a non faith School I wasn't happy that they were talked to about Jesus and God but could live with it. But I was disgusted and appalled when they were told to pray. Even though this was a school that was 60% Hindu 20% Muslim so the praying was not to a specific diety- I was still disgusted that this was done.

When my Grandchildren went to a non faith School I was stunned that 25 years later when approx 50% of the population is atheist or non believers they still asked the children to pray.

Children need to learn about Christianity and all religions but praying should be removed from non faith schools.

ChikiTIKI · 18/09/2018 16:43

Ok I have asked my husband about the historians, he knows more on this than me as he studied ancient history but the ancient historian I was referring to was Jewish and named Josephus and has been mentioned above.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 18/09/2018 16:46

It is ridiculous for a place of education to be indoctrinating young children about historical figures that we have no idea if they actually existed or not.

I hope they are also teaching about the existence of King Arthur, Uncle Sam, Robin Hood & William Tell.

I despair at the state of education today.

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