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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To delay paying childminder

301 replies

Harmonyrays · 12/09/2018 05:47

On day two of my ds being with his new childminder I receive an invoice for the entire month. Is this normal? I'd expected to get it at the end of the month. I've only just gone back to work and don't get paid until then.

AIBU to delay paying until the 30th?

OP posts:
BabyTeeth · 14/09/2018 07:29

Well done childminders for getting professionally organised and protecting their working conditions. When I was self employed (not as CM) was told expect to have 10% invoices unpaid and so set fees to cover this. It’s much fairer to avoid this by getting invoices paid in advance and not penalising everyone with higher fees to cover those who don’t pay.

SoyDora · 14/09/2018 07:30

After school clubs you pay after

Not ours.

BookWitch · 14/09/2018 07:50

I used to be a CM (in the 1990 -mid 00s)

Even then I was paid in advance, subject to contract.
It's all about communication, I had some families who paid weekly, as that was how they were paid and occasionally I had a family who paid me in arrears.
I had one family who was in the exact same position as OP, new job hadn't been paid yet. I agreed to wait.

OP, just TALK to your CM and explain and see if something can be sorted out. But whatever you do don't just not pay her. It's a terrible way to start an important relationship, and you could end up with no childcare at all.

StatisticallyChallenged · 14/09/2018 07:53

Asc around here are all payment in advance. Some monthly, some termly. Activity classes likewise. Not universal but I've checked out a lot.

The reality is that childcare providers have evolved a business model which allows them to keep operating. Look at the experiences on here - very few have been able to sustain payments in arrears. The proportion of non payers is just too high. You don't like the model, fine.

So let's say it was suddenly not legal to require payment upfront. What would happen...
-bunch of non payers pretty quickly
-some childminders would cease trading, also pretty quickly. They're not huge businesses but individuals who can't absorb big losses easily. Mostly mothers with kids of their own in reality.

  • demand for remaining childminders goes up, and fees do as a result
  • remaining ones also start adjusting their fees to build in their bad debt losses (just like lots of other companies do). I'd say 25% non payers might be about average.

End result - you pay a lot more for childcare.

I reckon you'd also start to see a childminder equivalent to letting agents springing up who would do background checks, credit referencing etc on potential clients. At a fee, of course. They might even offer guaranteed income (just like the rent guarantee letting companies) in return for a % each month. Fees would of course increase to cover it - and a bit like private renting is inaccessible to many people, proper regulated childcare might be too.

Either way childcare would cost more.

JassyRadlett · 14/09/2018 08:02

After school clubs you pay after.

Not universal, as I pointed out in literally the post before yours.

Equally you could pay a month up front and the childminder could just stop minding and you have lost your money.

Seems less likely that a CM will give up her entire livelihood than that a parent won’t pay, but sure, it’s possible. But ultimately childminders have come up with a business model that protects them as the service provider, and that is clearly acceptable to the majority of the market (and isn’t out of step with other business models in the childcare sector).

Snoopychildminder · 14/09/2018 08:43

I feel like we are going round in circles here... not much left to say except I cannot tell you how much I value and cherish the parents that are honest with me and do not mess me around with payment. All it takes is a bit of open communication and everyone is happy.

DoAsYouWouldBeMumBy · 14/09/2018 09:44

@SoupDragon I don't make anyone work - that is the payment method they have asked for. My son's piano teacher expects to be paid at the end of the month, his CM was the same. It's up to any self-employed person how they want to invoice their customers, I was only saying that the OP is not completely crazy to be surprised by the upfront payment demand - that's not how everyone works.

ThreeAnkleBiters · 14/09/2018 10:44

I pay for all childcare, classes and activities in advance except for after school club (at my school you don't have to book they'll just charge the following term for whatever you've used). Why the he'll should they take the risk I won't pay.

blueskiesandforests · 14/09/2018 11:38

We have to pay partly quarterly, 2 months in in advance and one in arrears for after school care.

We have to pay the same amount every month 11 months per year, even though the holiday club is only open exactly half of each holiday and starts later than school does, meaning we can't use it as we've already been at work a couple of hours before it opens.

LG123 · 14/09/2018 12:08

Albeit it was 20/25 years ago, my mum just told me she paid in arrears.

I'd be pretty pissed if I paid a whole month on advance and then the childminder refused to look after my child/ren so either party can get stung...

Ellapaella · 14/09/2018 13:14

It's simple really..
The childminder charges in advance because if you decide half way through the month you no longer require his or her services or you just don't pay you have deprived them of the opportunity to look after a mindee. They have ratios they have to accommodate the same way a nursery does.

Snoopychildminder · 14/09/2018 14:03

It’s a lot less likely that a childminder would stop minding a child half through the month, they have a heck of a lot more to lose out on!

manicmij · 14/09/2018 16:27

There seems to be a lot of comments on how awful it is that cms are paid so little. Why then do people not pay them more? Don't say it's due to having low wages as given the comments those who use cms are paid more - at least the minimum wage. A service that you don't pay for in advance is your energy supplier. Use it then you pay. If cms are always being scammed they should ask for a week/month deposit non returnable if payments are missed.

JassyRadlett · 14/09/2018 16:52

A service that you don't pay for in advance is your energy supplier. Use it then you pay.

Unless of course you’re on a prepayment meter. Or with one of the many energy companies that incentivises monthly direct debits, and varies those to ensure you are paying in advance for energy peaks.

And of course energy companies have greatly more resources to absorb and pursue late- and non-payment than a self-employed childminder.

That services exist where payment is in arrears does not mean all services should automatically operate in that way; it’s as illogical as suggesting that because gyms and childminders charge in advance, then all services should.

JassyRadlett · 14/09/2018 16:55

If cms are always being scammed they should ask for a week/month deposit non returnable if payments are missed.

Having looked at this again - what’s the practical difference between a paying month’s deposit iand paying monthly in advance?

MTBMummy · 14/09/2018 16:59

we pay our CM in advance, and I have no issue with this, we also pay for any after school clubs and activities the whole term in advance, it's just the way it is.

ButterscupsRevenge · 14/09/2018 17:58

Im suprised this wasnt one of the firat things discussed. Speak to her and see if its possible to pay weekly for this money to ease the pinch?

ButterscupsRevenge · 14/09/2018 17:58

*first
*month
Damn sausage fingers

Trottersindependenttraders · 14/09/2018 18:37

Late to the party but we always paid nursery in advance. After school club also paid in advance. All the extra curricular stuff is also in advance - Brownies, Beavers, Rugby, Dance, Swimming lessons. I can’t think of anything where we’d pay after the event.

BITCAT · 14/09/2018 18:40

I find usually if you speak to them they are usually understanding. That being said in no other job are you paid in advance. Everyone i know is paid a month in arrears and im sure all those people have bills, childcare and things to pay.

ChocolateWombat · 14/09/2018 20:27

It strikes me that the people who object to paying in advance are exactly those people who are more likely (and notice I don't say they will, simply are more likely) to decide to either leave with short notice or not pay and leave at the end of the month.

How anyone can read this thread and fail to understand the great risk CMs and other childcare providers put themselves at if they don't ask for either a month payment as deposit or a month (or week if its weekly payments) in advance, is totally beyond me. Anyone who knows anything about childcare knows nurseries charge in advance, extra curricular activities do it and lots of membership based activities for adults do it too - it's entirely normal, so why would anyone object? Paying in advance doesn't cost the customer more or mean the lump sums required each month are more.....so why the objection? The total inability of some people to understand it from the CMs point of view, but only to think to themselves that they would like to pay later, is staggering.

For anyone still in doubt about it, look back at this thread at the numerous reports from CMs or parents who had arrears set-ups who received childcare and then vanished without paying for it. If you still can't then understand why most charge in advance and why all the CM networks and support groups advise paying in advance, and why nurseries do it, then the ability to understand logic and reason must be missing.

CMs are not salaried employees. Salaried employees are usually paid in arrears, but they are not employees, but self employed who provide an on-going service.
CMS do not provide a one-off service which you pay for after the service, such as a hairdresser or meal out. They provide a promise to provide an on-going service and keep the place in that service free for your child. You pay to ensure that the future service is available, because once the CM has committed to giving you the place, they cannot 'sell' that individual place to someone else.....if you then don't pay with an arrears arrangement, or do t give the required notice they are unable to re-sell the place for the weeks past, and I likely to get a customer immediately for the immediate weeks arising - so they will be out of pocket.

Parents cannot expect to have a service provided and a guarantee of a service into the future without paying for that security of provision.....and you can only secure something into the the future, not the past.

If an individual CM chooses to use an arrears arrangement, I would suspect that that are new to the job and haven't yet become wise to the risks and problems associated with paying in arrears, or I would imagine are really desperate for work and so willing to attract any custom, including those who are a bit risky and more likely not to pay. It leaves them In A very vulnerable position. Of course it is their choice and if that's what they specify in a contract (against all the advice of all CM organisations) and it is agreed with parents, that is what needs to happen.

Any CM who does not provide a contract in advance or does not discuss payment terms sounds inexperienced and/or unprofessional. Parents who haven't used childcare before or who are unscrupulous might find they slip into childcare without such agreements, but are either daft and naieve or unscrupulous.

Quite simply if you want someone to provide a quality service and perform the important job of looking after your child, you need to expect them to want to be paid a decent amount and usi g terms and conditions which protect them and ensure they will be paid. Payment in advance delivers this. If you can't or aren't prepared to pay the amount and in this way, you simply cannot have the service.

GeorgieTheGorgeousGoat · 14/09/2018 20:32

This just posted today helps explain the DAILY stories childminders face with parents.

To delay paying childminder
JassyRadlett · 14/09/2018 20:57

That being said in no other job are you paid in advance. Everyone i know is paid a month in arrears and im sure all those people have bills, childcare and things to pay.

Frankly, if you want a childcare provider who is a salaried employee, paid monthly in arrears, you want a nanny. A childminder is a self-employed service provider and parents are paying for that service, not paying their salary.

Umpteenthingsclean · 14/09/2018 21:17

You're not paying their wages. You're paying Childminders R Us for their services and at the end of the month, the proprietor pays themself a wage for the work they have done.

JuJu2017 · 15/09/2018 12:30

YABU if it is in your contract; I know that it’s normal for childminders to expect payment in advance and I’ve seen many colleagues struggle to pay up front costs before pay day after mat leave