To think disabled women are going to lose their rights?

[tillytop]

I recently had a conversation with someone who finds it perfectly acceptable to direct an able bodied transwoman in a swimming pools ladies changing room, to the disabled facilities. Up to now I have been fully supporting concerned women. However, it now appears that the "go to" could be to direct people to the disabled facilities, disregarding the needs of disabled women who may have to queue to use their own hard fought for facilities.

Meant to say I need a seat with bars.

Disabled changing rooms are usually and should be unisex. It is a disability issue not a women's issue.

tilly you will get in to pee 0 transwomenare not taking over the world twitter and other platforms might make you think they are but they really are not

Where was this transwoman supposed to get changed for swimming then Why is that disabled womens problem?

Women FOUGHT for our toilets and changing facilities as we were not given them and therefore were limited in how much we could access private life. The epxectation was that women stayed at home, or did not stray far. Why would they need to?

People with disabilities FOUGHT for accessible facilities and changes in law around provision.

TBH both these fights continue as accessible facilities are still few and far between and the massive closures of public toilets has had a disproportionate effect on women as we can't pee round the corner like a bloke, and we have many more issues than men around this >> periods, pregnancy & elderly women have continence issues often, also we are still the ones who look after young kids mostly and when they need to go they need to go.

Now, rather than understadnign that these groups have specific needs and seeing what needs transpeople have and looking for answers that fit everyone and then lobbying for them,

The more vocal activists are having both womens and disabled people's faciltiies opened up to anyone who feels like using them. While able bodies mens facilities remain essentially sacrosanct.

This is shit.

What I do have a problem with is the gender critical movement trying to use disabled rights issues to forward their cause. If you're not disabled, or you've never campaigned about disabled rights before, please leave us out of it. We have far bigger issues to worry about, like the never ending cuts to disability benefits, barriers to employment, and cuts to the NHS. They affect our quality of life every single day.

Very well said.

Please piss off using marginalised groups to stir up the Mumsnet echo chamber on trans people.

This isn't an issue for people with physical disabilities to solve.

Go back 15-20 years, there weren't many disabled facilities. The few there are have been fought long and hard for.

I'd suggest campaigning for gender neutral facilities to be installed.

Very rude Lola.

I am disabled FWIW (although anyone can say anythng on here).

It is not a disabled women's issue and it is not a women's issue.

Neitehr groups should have to solve this issue.

I don't understand how people >> esp women>> can't see the issue with any man being allowed into womens and girls facilities.

How is it that women saying "these people should not be in the disabled facilities" an attack on people with disabilities.

Some of these comments make me feel like certain people think that if you are a disabled woman the fact that you are disabled trumps the fact that you are a woman so only disability matters are really relevant to you and you don't really count as a woman with the same concerns as other women.

The logic of saying THEY can just use facilities designated for disabled people means that you also see disabled people as OTHER, not the same as you and not entitled to the same rights and segregated/separate from you, rightly, as a matter of course

"@Buzzlightyearsbumchin I have no problem with your child using whichever disabled toilet they are most comfortable in, and I say that as a disabled person.

What I do have a problem with is the gender critical movement trying to use disabled rights issues to forward their cause. If you're not disabled, or you've never campaigned about disabled rights before, please leave us out of it. We have far bigger issues to worry about, like the never ending cuts to disability benefits, barriers to employment, and cuts to the NHS. They affect our quality of life every single day."

The poster who said the second part, said in the same post that trans people should use the accessible facilities if they feel like it.

That does way more to much things up for people with disabilities, than women saying they shouldn't be using disabled facilities oR be in with the women.

So you are saying in 1998 there was less disabled facilities /toilets Baum

Given the understanding that some disabilities are people who have other than the use of wheelchair, walking sticks etc, should there now be an increase in the number of disabled toilets and changing facilities? An example is someone using a ostomy bag.

muck things up

This makes me so angry

Two groups have fucking good reason for not wanting any bloke who says "I'm a woman" in their space.

They should be looking to resolve this for the benefit of all and then lobby for that. As people with disabilities did. As women did.

Instead these 2 groups are pitted against each other and as usual the able bodied men just get on with it and no one bothers them with anything.

Not as many as now. All new buildings are now accessible etc.

It's better than it was. Irrespective, it's not an issue for physically disabled people to solve. They need disabled facilities.

Obviosuly MrsJayy.

It has been ongoing and heavy campaigning for years that has got us to where we are now.

#It's beign eroded now with so many with a wheelchair (accessible) sign having "all genders" slapped on next to it.

It's not on.

You can get a free Radar key why would you be buying one on ebay

Have you ever gone through getting a free one? It's a pain in the arse. I had to wait four months for mine, so bought a couple of extras that arrived next day. I keep one in my wheelchair bag, one in my car, one in my handbag and my husband has one, so we can ensure we won't ever be caught short.

I'm a wheelchair user and I have severe anxiety and PTSD. Sometimes I can get around on crutches. If I'm on crutches, I would never use the disabled toilet - why would I need to? It's accessible for a reason and me using it could cause a hold up for someone who actually needs it. My mental illness doesn't mean that I need an accessible toilet - they're for people with wheelchairs, stomas, those who need hoists etc. Mental illness doesn't render you incapable of using a normal loo. If you don't feel comfortable using a normal toilet because of mental illness, surely you're going to feel uncomfortable in shops/restaurants /public places too?

If trans people want unisex toilets, fine, but they should be additional to accessible toilets for the disabled. Being trans is not a disability.

This is pitting women and people with disabilities against each other - divide and rule.

The number of feminist I hear say "well there needs to be a third gender neutral toilets", without thinking that the disabled loo will just be relabeled. Just incidentally like at the Tate modern, it's already happening.

But it's ok as long as a woman isn't in the same room as a penis, even if its a penis in disguise not even in the same cubicle as you.

It's not divide a conquer, feminists are doing all by themselves.

And the disabled are still having fundraise themselves for adequate toilet facilities (Changing place). Women had never had to fund their own loos.

They are for those who feel their disability requires the use of the toilet. My son can walk. He doesn't have a physical disability. He still needs a disabled toilet

The fuck banana?

NO feminists are saying "just relabel the accessible toilets".

Of course it is divide and conquer.

If men are allowed in women's facilities, lots of women will nto use them. That is not OK.

Why do so many women think that is OK.

"But it's ok as long as a woman isn't in the same room as a penis,"

Why is it unreasonable of women suddenly not to want to have cocks all over the shop when they are gettign tehir kit off etc? No-one ever thought it was unreasonabel before. Apart from pervy men, obv. Who, incidentally, love having the right to go to places where women and girls are in a vulnerable state.

mixed sex facilities

Trans people shoudl be coming up with solutions that work for all parties.

At the moment space is being taken from people wiht disabiltieis and women adn girls.

This is not OK.

I am boggled that women on MN think that women and girls who don't want to get their kit off with men are selfish.

Meh. My local swimming pool is already completely bloody inaccessible to me as a disabled female, so let anyone have the ‘disabled’ loo if they can use it.

My one experience of attempting to bite the bullet and trying to make it work for me anyway was fucking humiliating from start to finish, although I plastered a ‘oh I don’t mind everyone staring at me like this’ face on all the way through.

I suspect anyone who has a choice, wouldn’t let themselves in for that treatment, although a person who was trans and just using the toilet wouldn’t get the whole humiliating experience.

Yes WellThisIsShit

I know exactly what you mean, my local baths is accessible but barely and getting in and out involves a gigantic rigmarole of being on show to anyone in the vicinity, both in the pool and walking past on the street or in the cafe which I find embarrassing so I usually chicken out of going.

You lot have no idea about trans people. They are the ones getting thrown under the bus here. No idea, and not one iota of compassion.

You lot have no idea about trans people. They are the ones getting thrown under the bus here. No idea, and not one iota of compassion

I have trans friends. The ones I've discussed this with in the past are horrified at some wanting to use disabled facilities when they aren't disabled. It's not about having compassion for trans people - I'm sure most understand that it's difficult. It's about recognising that it isn't a disability and should be tackled as a separate issue. Where is the compassion for the disabled?

I find it odd that people think it's acceptable for disabled people to have to share with parents who need to change nappies and not dysphoric people. I mean, many larger places have family facilities anyways these days, but I don't understand why disabled people should wait for people who need to change a nappy, but waiting for a dysphoric person is going to destroy everything disabled activists have fought for. Why should being a parent give you any more right to be in disabled spaces? It's well known that parents didn't decide that that was a great arrangement, but the idea that bad arrangement is okay but dysphoric people are a step too far is ridiculous.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - people have been fighting for other single stall unisex facilities for literally decades for many reasons and for many reasons people in power say this can't be done. There is no space, no money, not enough of a need, that if we have such body issues we won't want to swim or whatever anyways, and so on. We've been told to use the disabled facilities for years often because 'if it's so bad you can't use your own sex's facilities, it's a disability'. We can come up with all the possible solutions but if people in power don't give a fuck, it doesn't get done.

Much like the often called 'honour system' of trans people using the other sex's facilities, this has been going on for some time. Yes, some people abuse it. Yes, we need better solutions which people have been fighting for - extra single-stall facilities, proper attendants - but those solutions aren't in now and those who have been fighting for solutions are far too often ignored by both sides. It shouldn't be a free for all, that really isn't a good solution for many reasons, but it also shouldn't be constantly out that we're all some sort of bogeyman who just leech off of everyone else when no matter what we argue, we're told it isn't enough for anything but the laziest changes by those in charge. I'm a dysphoric disabled parent, I would love better facilities, I've been arguing for them for years, but until that's a reality, we have bad arrangements and hodgepodge solutions that don't make anyone happy. The only local council pool left where I am is inaccessible to me anyways for entirely different reasons as their solutions are shite but I'm not going to blame anyone else other than those in charge for the ways things are now.

And yeah, radar keys are sold on eBay. They are also sold by Age UK, Boots, several disability charities, and many other places because not all disabled people get PIP even when we try, many people don't want to go through the process again after previous draining painful experiences with the system designed to deny us, and many who do get them with PIP lose them and it's easier to buy them online. That has also been going on for years. If you haven't noticed people abusing the radar key system in the last decade or so that that's been a thing to the point you're surprised by it now, I think there isn't enough of an issue to try to fight against access to accessible toilets but more arguing there should be more of them.